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Question for the "experts"

  • January 12, 2012 at 8:13 am

    #1432549

    As an helpful pointer, "experts" in this thread's title could be construed in a bad way by some.

    I don't know what you meant by this, but it's a nice exemple you might want to keep in mind.

    P.S. I like to think myself as a helper than expert.

  • January 12, 2012 at 8:22 am

    #1432558

    patrickmcginnis59 (1/12/2012)

    DeanORenO (1/11/2012)

    you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?

    I was pretty surprised at some of the interactions when I first arrived here and I've thought a bit about why.

    One of the things I've noticed here is that reputation on this site is strongly based on the number of posts, and when you have a measure like this that might not be directly correlated to desireable personality traits, new visitors could be quite surprised at some of the resulting interactions.

    Another characteristic I've observed is that the RDBMS database community itself has a strong theme of orthodoxy baked in, look at the reaction you got because you preferred "raiserror" for instance, one fellow flat out called you "wrong" and pretty much rejected you on a personal basis because of something that might have worked for you. This is a favorite subject of mine, and rather than expound in depth here, I'm just going to leave it out there that some RDBMS folks tend to get a bit eccentric, and combining this with reputation based on post count, and this is going to result in some interaction biases that at first glance will probably be pretty confusing.

    There are plenty of nice folks here though, and there really is some great info and a ton of experiece here, so I wouldn't write the site off entirely based on a wierd first impression.

    Yeah, reputation is based quite a bit on number of posts, the assumption being that the more you post the more you know. Yes, that could be wrong, but that is true of most forums I'm aware of, even those that use the Stack Overflow model of up-voting and down-voting posts because the more I post the more likely I'll get up-votes. Unfortunately answering questions doesn't guarantee knowledge. All the top 10 points people on this site, yes I have met all but one personally (well not really SQLRNNR, but we do work for the same company and have projects together) and consider them all friends, will readily admit that there are posts we have made that are not the best answers and articles we have written that could be better, but we do give the best answer we know for a question. There are times when we can be zealous about things, like shrinking files and RBAR, but because we really want things to work the best.

    I actually see less biases in this community than in others, but I could have my rose-colored glasses on.

    Jack Corbett
    Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
    Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
    Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
    Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question

  • January 12, 2012 at 8:25 am

    #1432564

    Jack Corbett (1/12/2012)

    patrickmcginnis59 (1/12/2012)

    DeanORenO (1/11/2012)

    you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?

    I was pretty surprised at some of the interactions when I first arrived here and I've thought a bit about why.

    One of the things I've noticed here is that reputation on this site is strongly based on the number of posts, and when you have a measure like this that might not be directly correlated to desireable personality traits, new visitors could be quite surprised at some of the resulting interactions.

    Another characteristic I've observed is that the RDBMS database community itself has a strong theme of orthodoxy baked in, look at the reaction you got because you preferred "raiserror" for instance, one fellow flat out called you "wrong" and pretty much rejected you on a personal basis because of something that might have worked for you. This is a favorite subject of mine, and rather than expound in depth here, I'm just going to leave it out there that some RDBMS folks tend to get a bit eccentric, and combining this with reputation based on post count, and this is going to result in some interaction biases that at first glance will probably be pretty confusing.

    There are plenty of nice folks here though, and there really is some great info and a ton of experiece here, so I wouldn't write the site off entirely based on a wierd first impression.

    Yeah, reputation is based quite a bit on number of posts, the assumption being that the more you post the more you know. Yes, that could be wrong, but that is true of most forums I'm aware of, even those that use the Stack Overflow model of up-voting and down-voting posts because the more I post the more likely I'll get up-votes. Unfortunately answering questions doesn't guarantee knowledge. All the top 10 points people on this site, yes I have met all but one personally (well not really SQLRNNR, but we do work for the same company and have projects together) and consider them all friends, will readily admit that there are posts we have made that are not the best answers and articles we have written that could be better, but we do give the best answer we know for a question. There are times when we can be zealous about things, like shrinking files and RBAR, but because we really want things to work the best.

    I actually see less biases in this community than in others, but I could have my rose-colored glasses on.

    I don't think you have them on - I forgot to mail them back to you.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • January 12, 2012 at 8:27 am

    #1432567

    DeanORenO (1/12/2012)

    the folks on this forum are way to sensitive, I never ask questions that are intentionaly[sic] rude, that is just the way you interpret the question. If I tell you the answer you give to my question is wrong, then I'm instantly being rude, I guess

    You asked a question that was unclear. Upon reading another question you posted in another thread, the question became clear, but, as-posted, it was unclear. You had more context around it, so it was, I'm sure, very clear to you. But, as you wrote it, by itself, it was unclear.

    I wrote, "I must be misreading your question...", and followed that with a description of what part of your question was confusing me and why, and asked for clarification. Note that I did not in any way attack you. I assumed the flaw was in me, not you. No rudeness there.

    Here are your responses to my question:

    or maybe I need to define how sql databases use a "query" to get data, or maybe define what a stored procedure is?

    just how simple do my statements need to be to get some help? Do I need to go back to how computers were built or how they work?

    do you think the words "concatenate" or "multi select" are too hard for people to understand?

    Can't anybody figure this out? I'm almost finished processing this anyway, but gees guys how hard do you think this question is?

    All of those are unquestionably deliberately written to be insulting and rude.

    Had you simply replied "There's more context to this here..." and provided a link to the other relevant thread, I would have been able to answer your technical question, and would have done so promptly, correctly, and easily.

    Instead, you got condescending, arrogantly assumed that anyone who can't read your mind must be an idiot, and so on.

    Then you start out this thread with:

    you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums

    and title it:

    Question for the "experts"

    Obviously, the quotation marks around "experts" are meant to indicate some form of falsehood in the title. That's standard English usage in that manner.

    So, you start out by indicating that the people on this forum are fake experts, and then directly go into an accusation about our work on the forums.

    Obviously, you are simply trolling here, and we fell for the bait. Oh well.

    So don't be shocked when we react negatively to you. It really is as simple as that.

    Of course, if your a standard troll (as I currently think), then our negative reaction feeds your ego, and it's as simple as that.

    But I'm not posting this for you. I'm posting it for anyone sane who comes along, finds your accusations, and makes the mistake of thinking you have a valid gripe.

    - Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
    Property of The Thread

    "Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon

  • January 12, 2012 at 8:33 am

    #1432573

    Grant Fritchey (1/12/2012)

    DeanORenO (1/12/2012)

    the folks on this forum are way to sensitive, I never ask questions that are intentionaly rude, that is just the way you interpret the question. If I tell you the answer you give to my question is wrong, then I'm instantly being rude, I guess

    I haven't accused you of being rude. I've answered your question to the best of my ability. I have an honest and fair question for you. Please, can you answer it?

    Why is asking questions about a question bad? I'm trying to learn and understand.

    I've accused him of being rude.

    And don't expect a rational response to your questions for him.

    He's a troll, and we fed him. That's really all there is to it.

    - Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
    Property of The Thread

    "Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon

  • January 12, 2012 at 8:33 am

    #1432574

    DeanORenO (1/11/2012)

    you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?

    A good question provides all the information needed for someone who knows nothing about your systems to understand your problem or issue and what you are attempting to accomplish. It should show that you have researched your problem/issue and aren't just looking for someone to do your work for you (trust me, there are some out there who do this).

    The first two articles in my signature block are a good place to start regarding what information should be posted and how to it.

    Even then, expect to be questioned by some. You may be asking how to write something using cursors, for example. Many of us will try to steer you away from that and try to show you why even thougb that solution may work fine for you. If you are asking for help, be willing to look at other alternatives other than the one you may find or the first one provided. This is how you learn and become better at what you do.

  • January 12, 2012 at 9:24 am

    #1432660

    I love this, "read his posts and tear him apart" mentality you employ GSquared.

  • January 12, 2012 at 9:29 am

    #1432675

    /opted out

    this is just getting nowhere soon.

  • January 12, 2012 at 9:32 am

    #1432681

    Forgive me if I don't respond any time soon to future responses. I am going to be busy trolling the other threads.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • January 12, 2012 at 10:16 am

    #1432741

    And with one more post but no response to a polite and honest question, I'm declaring a troll and now opting out of this conversation. Have fun y'all.

    ----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software

  • January 12, 2012 at 10:57 am

    #1432778

    DeanORenO (1/12/2012)

    I love this, "read his posts and tear him apart" mentality you employ GSquared.

    I would suggest rejoining the site under a new name and starting from scratch with a whole new attitude and approach. I had never encountered your posts before today, but your performance here is more than enough to ensure that I will not be interacting with "DeanORenO" in future. Just FYI.

    Paul White
    SQLPerformance.com
    SQLkiwi blog
    @SQL_Kiwi

  • January 12, 2012 at 11:07 am

    #1432788

    DeanORenO (1/12/2012)

    I love this, "read his posts and tear him apart" mentality you employ GSquared.

    Me too. You're welcome.

    - Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
    Property of The Thread

    "Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon

  • January 12, 2012 at 11:43 am

    #1432820

    GilaMonster (1/12/2012)

    patrickmcginnis59 (1/12/2012)

    look at the reaction you got because you preferred "raiserror" for instance, one fellow flat out called you "wrong" and pretty much rejected you on a personal basis because of something that might have worked for you.

    Just on this point... There's orthodoxy and there's the 'right tool for the job'. Go to a dev community forum (any one) and suggest raising errors for non-error events and see what reaction you get. Errors (raised, thrown or logged) should be for errors, not expected operations or control flow through code. If I wrote a C# app that raised an error when a user clicked a button, C# developers would rightly call me a complete idiot, that's not what errors are for. Yes, it'll work, but....

    I wouldn't raise an exception if a button was pressed. Still, "raiserror" or "throw" are by definition useful when the runtime itself has detected no error but you still want the behavior, and I wouldn't mind debating maintainability and efficiency (while ignoring the name calling).

    For clarity, the original poster insisted the decision was not his, and the original replier suggested "select * from tablethatdoesnotexist" before changing gears to criticise the raising of the error in the first place. The original poster, rude or not, said that the requirement was for the behavior resulting from failing the job and that this decision was made already prior to his post.

    I realise you'd rather not defend the guy, but while he is a bit overly sensitive, I can see why he wasn't thrilled with that particular thread.

  • January 12, 2012 at 11:54 am

    #1432822

    patrickmcginnis59 (1/12/2012)

    For clarity, the original poster insisted the decision was not his, and the original replier suggested "select * from tablethatdoesnotexist" before changing gears to criticise the raising of the error in the first place. The original poster, rude or not, said that the requirement was for the behavior resulting from failing the job and that this decision was made already prior to his post.

    I realise you'd rather not defend the guy, but while he is a bit overly sensitive, I can see why he wasn't thrilled with that particular thread.

    I disagree. I don't see the only person who replied doing anything to get upset about or reply rudely or unprofessionally to. I can't imagine not having had an experience when a specification is giving to you by a user where the user didn't really understand the technology and you had to lead them to a better solution. That seems to be what the person replying in that thread was trying to get to. Yes, that works, but, perhaps this might be a better solution for these reasons.

    For those interested in making their own decisions here is the thread in question.

    Edit: added link to thread in question

    Jack Corbett
    Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
    Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
    Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
    Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question

  • January 12, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    #1432861

    Jack Corbett (1/12/2012)

    patrickmcginnis59 (1/12/2012)

    For clarity, the original poster insisted the decision was not his, and the original replier suggested "select * from tablethatdoesnotexist" before changing gears to criticise the raising of the error in the first place. The original poster, rude or not, said that the requirement was for the behavior resulting from failing the job and that this decision was made already prior to his post.

    I realise you'd rather not defend the guy, but while he is a bit overly sensitive, I can see why he wasn't thrilled with that particular thread.

    I disagree. I don't see the only person who replied doing anything to get upset about or reply rudely or unprofessionally to. I can't imagine not having had an experience when a specification is giving to you by a user where the user didn't really understand the technology and you had to lead them to a better solution. That seems to be what the person replying in that thread was trying to get to. Yes, that works, but, perhaps this might be a better solution for these reasons.

    For those interested in making their own decisions here is the thread in question.

    Edit: added link to thread in question

    Thats ok! I never demand that a poster see things my way, especially since I like using raiserror 😉

    But I can also see your viewpoint too, and the original poster did seem pretty sensitive, and I guess we chased him away anyways.

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