January 11, 2012 at 3:58 pm
you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?
January 11, 2012 at 4:24 pm
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?
I reviewed a number of the threads you've been involved in via your posting history. Would you like the answer polite or direct?
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 11, 2012 at 4:31 pm
DeanORenO
you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self.
And if you are observant you will note that the gripping is done on this forum Answers (mostly tested when the OP posts sample data) and assistance is still given to to OP
January 11, 2012 at 4:46 pm
There is also this proclivity for answering questions with questions or turning the question on the asker, like most of the replies to my question will inevitably be.
January 11, 2012 at 4:49 pm
DeanORenO
you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self.
Simple questions - many of the "simple" questions are posed without any apparent effort on the part of the OP. Despite that, I see tons of these questions answered frequently by many people.
Complex questions - if a complex question is posed without background, is poorly framed, and has no supporting information - answers are not going to be worth much of anything. How can a question without any supporting information be answered without just pulling a guess out of your rear? Quite often the complex questions involve several processes and hundreds (if not more) lines of code. That is quite an undertaking for a free service and no background or supporting information for the question. Even in cases where there are very involved processes and many lines of code, if there is an execution plan - the person will get very useful help very quickly.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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January 11, 2012 at 5:12 pm
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
There is also this proclivity for answering questions with questions or turning the question on the asker, like most of the replies to my question will inevitably be.
We'll try polite first.
First: We're all volunteers. Thus, we prefer to assist people willing to both help themselves and who are appreciative of the help, not expecting it. Combative and impatient people will rarely receive good help here. The attitude of the questioner will determine a good question as much as the information they initially provide. It is also an open forum. Anyone from newbie to guru can present themselves here as an "expert" if they choose. I personally will only click on topics that interest me directly in their discussion or on things that lend themselves to something I consider myself heavily experienced in and can probably help.
Simple questions will be answered simply. It is assumed that someone with a simple question in our industry is merely ignorant of the necessary keywords or topics they need to research to complete their task. This is twofold. Most of us dislike assisting people taking quizzes or doing homework and would prefer they do their own research before joining us at a job, and anyone else that's usually all they need.
Complex questions with poor or incomplete descriptions will be requested to make further clarifications as to their intent. Almost any complex request is immediately followed by three or four clarification posts before anything particular is done for clarification, at least until they're used to how those of us who help out with our free time will expect information. This is neither a slight on the poster nor on the requester of extra information. If the original poster knew all the questions to ask they'd not be requesting help.
That said, a complex question should provide as much of the business process as they can describe without breaking NDA agreements, sample schema and code where applicable, .SQLPLAN's if you have performance issues, and any secondary information available about the exact nature of the problem. The shorter the description, the shorter the answer, as again, it's assumed a 'complex' question with a simple descriptor is merely looking for a cure to a 'brain fart' more than an end-to-end discussion and answer.
Does that help?
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
January 11, 2012 at 5:16 pm
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
There is also this proclivity for answering questions with questions or turning the question on the asker, like most of the replies to my question will inevitably be.
If questions are answered with questions there usually are missing information and/or unclear/incomplete description.
Please keep in mind we don't know the context the question is asked in nor can we look over your shoulder to see what you see. All we have is what is posted.
And sometimes there's just something as simple as a language barrier. For instance, I'm one of those ESL folks around, so sometimes I simply need to ask for a different wording.
Finally, the "tone" of the question and/or the following posts sometimes just lead to some of us simply moving to another thread. After all, we're volunteers trying to help. But if the help is demanded accompanied by an insulting tone, this forum might not be the best place to go to.... Edit: nor is any other forum. At least from my point of view.
January 11, 2012 at 11:44 pm
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
There is also this proclivity for answering questions with questions or turning the question on the asker, like most of the replies to my question will inevitably be.
Would you prefer that we simply guess at an answer to a question that does not provide us with enough information to actually give a valid answer?
We may gripe about the constant barrage of the same simple question that could be answered by the OP themselves if they made the slightest attempt to read Books Online or use Google or Bing; but we still help the OP.
We may ask questions to can clarity regarding the problem or issue, to get additional information needed to actually give solid help. We also ask questions in an effort to get the OP to think about what they are trying to accomplish, and especially when it comes to helping with homework.
All of us on this site who help do it because we want to share our knowledge and experience with others. And many of us do it because we ourselves got help from others as well and believe strongly in paying it back.
For me, this site was a blessing. I had already worked with SQL Server for 9 years before becoming active in the SQL Server community and this site in particular. What I learned over the next 5 years I would not have learned on my own. Some of it was from simply reading what others offered to those asking questions. More of it came from helping others with their problems and having others provide even better solutions after mine.
Also, remember that we are volunteers providing help on our own time.
Don't knock us for our griping around the water cooler, it is what helps us stay sane and continue to help those who come to this site. If, and we encourage you to do so, you stay around you will find that there is much more to sqlservercentral.com. We are a community and we are here to help.
January 12, 2012 at 5:52 am
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
There is also this proclivity for answering questions with questions or turning the question on the asker, like most of the replies to my question will inevitably be.
I'm sorry to fit the mold so well, but I'm curious. What's wrong with asking questions? If you've posted a technical issue and I partly understand, but need clarification, I shouldn't ask a question? I'm trying to understand the thought process around the concept that asking questions about the question is somehow bad or of questionable taste or something. Apologies again for the question, but I'm just trying to understand. Please help me.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
January 12, 2012 at 6:05 am
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?
Can you provide a link to a thread which gives a good example of your observations, and which hasn't yet been accounted for?
For better assistance in answering your questions, please read this[/url].
Hidden RBAR: Triangular Joins[/url] / The "Numbers" or "Tally" Table: What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url] Jeff Moden[/url]
January 12, 2012 at 6:06 am
DeanORenO (1/11/2012)
you people on this forum are always complaining about the questions that are asked on the forums, either you complain that they are too simple, and that the poster should be able to find the information out for him/her self. Or the intensely complex questions that some posters ask are ultimately taken the wrong way by the answerers, because if you have a complex problem usually it is hard to relate a question about it to someone. So, I guess, what I want to know is "what question is a good question for the forum"?
Is this your reaction to my response to you the other day?
You asked an unclear question. I asked for clarification. You got seriously insulting. I called you out on it. You replaced your questions and posts with garbage strings of random characters.
I don't think the problem is "the people on this forum". I think the problem is that you need to grow up and become an adult and, possibly, a professional. Till that happens, yeah, I expect you'll get a lot of negative responses, and not just here, but probably all throughout your life.
When everyone responds negatively to you, the problem isn't everyone.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 12, 2012 at 6:45 am
I like all the interpretations of my question but still no answer. I imagine if I asked the question what is 2 + 2, I would get people telling me how rude I am or that I'm stupid, instead of just an answer of 4
January 12, 2012 at 6:49 am
DeanORenO (1/12/2012)
I like all the interpretations of my question but still no answer
It's not what you do but how you do it.
This might clear your mind : http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jeffs/archive/2008/05/13/question-needed-not-answer.aspx
January 12, 2012 at 6:53 am
Personal answer:
All questions are valid.
That doesn't mean that all questions will receive a precise answer. Some questions are homework or people in interviews posting as they interview (it's been done) and I'm not going to answer these with a direct 100% answer. My choice. Some questions are vague. I'm going to ask questions about them (sorry, you still haven't told me why this is bad). Some questions are extremely confusing. I'm going to ask questions about these (again, apologies). Some questions indicate that the person asking them is off on a tangent or doesn't understand the fundamentals of the technology. These questions may get the dreaded "What is it you're trying to do" question because my answer is going to be what they're trying to do, not what they're asking about because what they're asking about is off track.
So, in short, ask anything you want. But, I get to answer any way I want. Fair enough?
Now, please answer my request for clarification. Why is asking a question about a question bad?
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
January 12, 2012 at 6:57 am
DeanORenO (1/12/2012)
I like all the interpretations of my question but still no answer. I imagine if I asked the question what is 2 + 2, I would get people telling me how rude I am or that I'm stupid, instead of just an answer of 4
No, you would get the answer '4', because that is a complete question with all necessary information provided
However if you asked 'What is the sum of two numbers?', then you would get people asking you what two numbers (because there's no way on earth that question is answerable). If you started insulting people who asked for more info or demanding to know whether they have a clue about basic arithmetic, or whether you need to explain to them the meaning of 'sum' or 'number', then you would probably get no answers from that point onwards.
We are volunteers. We are posting in our free time (instead of playing sports, time with family, reading books, watching TV, etc). If someone makes rude comments about the need for additional information to answer their question (which is asked on a free forum, with no guarantees made), then frankly that person is going to receive very little help. How would you feel if someone came to you for help and then started insulting you?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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