December 8, 2015 at 9:15 am
Having recently been unemployed for a long period of time, I had many interviews. (Most by phone, some Skype or WebEx and those that were local were in person.) I can tell you that there's a really large portion of interviews who expert the interviewee to know the syntax of some arcane commands. Not knowing it lost me all of those jobs.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
December 8, 2015 at 10:23 am
That's ridiculous. That's a power play to show that the interviewer is smarter than the interviewee and it's thoroughly nonproductive and wasteful of everyone's time. If you were being hired to do something really arcane and you claimed specialty in that area, then maybe I could see higher expectations to know something weird.
Personally, I'd note what the weird command was and spend some time learning everything you can about it, you never know if the next person might ask you about it. 😀 Myself, there's a reason why I have my board signature as seen below printed on a sign in my office: it might take me a few minutes, but I can probably figure out anything you want to know if I don't know it off the top of my head.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
December 8, 2015 at 10:38 am
I agree. Some people are visual thinkers, and others are more cognitive. I could be asked a question and get brain freeze if I have to answer the question on the spot (except if I had just worked on the exact same thing recently). But in front of a computer with the ability to interact with the software, the mind gets triggered and the light bulb turns on.
If every interview I ever had was about text book questions randomly picked, I might never get work based on that type of interview. Fortunately, in my experience, the majority of the interviewers know less than me, so they tend to want to know about the projects you have done and what solutions you did.
I also think that if the interviewer asks too many text book like questions and does not focus on their needs, then I wonder if that is the type of people you would want to work for.
December 8, 2015 at 2:34 pm
Even if you dont know the answer to their arcane question, the important thing is to appear confident. Give them a correct answer to a different question thats as close as possible to the one they actually asked. Dont blink. Folks less intelligent than yourself get elected to political office using this technique.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
December 9, 2015 at 8:41 am
Rod at work (12/8/2015)
Having recently been unemployed for a long period of time, I had many interviews. (Most by phone, some Skype or WebEx and those that were local were in person.) I can tell you that there's a really large portion of interviews who expert the interviewee to know the syntax of some arcane commands. Not knowing it lost me all of those jobs.
I'm curious... what were some of the arcane commands? Was one of them GETDATE()? 😀
--Jeff Moden
December 9, 2015 at 8:54 am
Jeff Moden (12/9/2015)
Rod at work (12/8/2015)
Having recently been unemployed for a long period of time, I had many interviews. (Most by phone, some Skype or WebEx and those that were local were in person.) I can tell you that there's a really large portion of interviews who expert the interviewee to know the syntax of some arcane commands. Not knowing it lost me all of those jobs.I'm curious... what were some of the arcane commands? Was one of them GETDATE()? 😀
I'd bet it was DBCC TIMEWARP()
:hehe:
December 9, 2015 at 9:02 am
Gary Varga (12/8/2015)
There are technical fundamentals that I would expect practitioners at the applicable level to understand and be able to describe, however, I never expect anyone to remember syntax accurately. For a start, interviewing is using a different communication mechanism than coding. One is verbal whilst the other is physical and through a keyboard.
Yes and no. I DO expect someone to be able to tell me the exact syntax to get the current date and time, how to join two tables, how to do COUNT and SUM aggregates, and how to count from 1 to a million (even if it's only with a WHILE loop). If it's for a Senior position, I do require someone to know the syntax for things like setting the time element of a DATETIME datatype to midnight and they shouldn't even have to think about how to do it. Do I expect someone to remember the formatting code for any of the datetime conversions or have the code for a multi-filegroup backup memorized or the exact code for a hierarchical recursive CTE? No but there are some fundamental things that you should absolutely know the exact syntax for if you're worth your salt especially if you claim to be on your resume... and I am looking for someone with salt when I interview for Senior positions.
And, it's ok to always appear confident but if you confidently answer a question incorrectly, then I don't want you because I need someone that's humble enough and smart enough to know that there is no room for BS answers in Senior positions. If you don't know something, don't waste my time. I've hired people with a bit less knowledge than some others just because of their absolute honesty and humility in those areas they don't know.
--Jeff Moden
December 9, 2015 at 9:08 am
Jeff Moden (12/9/2015)
Gary Varga (12/8/2015)
There are technical fundamentals that I would expect practitioners at the applicable level to understand and be able to describe, however, I never expect anyone to remember syntax accurately. For a start, interviewing is using a different communication mechanism than coding. One is verbal whilst the other is physical and through a keyboard.Yes and no. I DO expect someone to be able to tell me the exact syntax to get the current date and time, how to join two tables, how to do COUNT and SUM aggregates, and how to count from 1 to a million (even if it's only with a WHILE loop). If it's for a Senior position, I do require someone to know the syntax for things like setting the time element of a DATETIME datatype to midnight and they shouldn't even have to think about how to do it. Do I expect someone to remember the formatting code for any of the datetime conversions or have the code for a multi-filegroup backup memorized or the exact code for a hierarchical recursive CTE? No but there are some fundamental things that you should absolutely know the exact syntax for if you're worth your salt especially if you claim to be on your resume... and I am looking for someone with salt when I interview for Senior positions.
And, it's ok to always appear confident but if you confidently answer a question incorrectly, then I don't want you because I need someone that's humble enough and smart enough to know that there is no room for BS answers in Senior positions. If you don't know something, don't waste my time. I've hired people with a bit less knowledge than some others just because of their absolute honesty and humility in those areas they don't know.
As usual, Jeff, you make me wish that I spent more time on the nuances of what I was attempting to answer.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 9, 2015 at 9:18 am
Ah... sorry Gary. I knew what you were getting at. Didn't mean to make it look like I was sniping you. It's just that I'm both totally amazed and totally disappointed in the slug bodies that I've been interviewing over time and used your good post to springboard to what I think are reasonable expectations during an interview for Senior positions.
--Jeff Moden
December 9, 2015 at 9:31 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/2/2015)
Rod at work (12/2/2015)
Oh Steve, man have you said a lot here that I'd like to respond to. But I think prudence forebears me from saying everything I'd like to. Generally speaking I've worked for different companies over the years which gave no importance to training their staff. Their software systems suffered for it, but either they were happy with that or ignorant of the effect their refusal to train anyone causes.But I appreciate your bringing up the responsibility of the employee, too. We've got to do whatever we can to train ourselves.
I'd best stop right there. Good article, thank you Steve.
Cheers, Rod.
See the two line quote above. I'd make sure my manager, and upper management, saw that.
I really wish I had good references/stories published on where a good developer makes money for the company and bad developers cost money. Too many legal implications for anyone to truly disclose much of this data.
Oh lordy, if I only had the time. I could definitely write some true stories in that area without any legal implications.
--Jeff Moden
December 9, 2015 at 9:39 am
Jeff Moden (12/9/2015)
Rod at work (12/8/2015)
Having recently been unemployed for a long period of time, I had many interviews. (Most by phone, some Skype or WebEx and those that were local were in person.) I can tell you that there's a really large portion of interviews who expert the interviewee to know the syntax of some arcane commands. Not knowing it lost me all of those jobs.I'm curious... what were some of the arcane commands? Was one of them GETDATE()? 😀
The one that readily comes to mind is where I was asked to develop a unit test of real values that were generated from a routine returning approximations. I can't remember what the function was I was asked to write and then test, but it was something like writing a function that would approximate the value of pi and unit test it. (Remember Newton's method of approximation?) Anyway, so there's my function generating real values which I've got to test to see if it's close to the real value of pi in a unit test. Much to my chagrin in my old job we never used unit testing. We didn't know how and never took the time to learn how. When I became unemployed every job I saw required unit testing. (I work primarily as a developer and secondarily as a DBA.) I realized that I had to learn what unit testing was and be able to reproduce it in an interview. I went to Microsoft's Channel 9 and watched Robert Green's tutorial on unit testing titled Getting Started with Unit Testing, which is an excellent introduction to unit testing, BTW. And given the fact that it's free and I was unemployed, it was a perfect resource for me. So I watched all 3 parts of Robert Green's tutorial and started writing my own simple applications and unit tests to get it under my belt.
In nearly all of my interviews from that point forward unit testing was brought up and I could say yes, I'd done that. A few times I was asked to demonstrate it and I did. But in most of those cases I was doing just a simple integer or string comparison. However in that one interview, where I was doing a real value numeric approximation using the MSTest AreEqual method of the Assert object I didn't know how to put in a value to handle an approximation. From that point forward the interview kinda went down hill. I knew I'd blown it. The interviewer showed me how it was done, but I could tell he wished I'd known that fact. It showed that I was still relatively new to unit testing. Too new for that particular job. BTW, in case you're interested, in MSTest's Assert class the AreEqual method has an overload that uses 3 parameters, the expected value, the actual value and the delta or "fudge factor" for real value approximations. You can look it up here.
That really stuck with me, that question and that interview. I really wanted that job and was deeply disappointed that I didn't get it. But like I said the job itself required one to use unit testing on a daily basis, so it was a basic skill from their point of view. Believe me, I learned that and if I ever get another chance with that company and job, I'll be ready.
And in case you're interested, in my current position my having experience with unit testing was brought up in the interview and was one of the determining factors for my getting this job. Moral of the story - keep learning.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
December 9, 2015 at 9:46 am
Jeff Moden (12/9/2015)
Ah... sorry Gary. I knew what you were getting at. Didn't mean to make it look like I was sniping you. It's just that I'm both totally amazed and totally disappointed in the slug bodies that I've been interviewing over time and used your good post to springboard to what I think are reasonable expectations during an interview for Senior positions.
No worries Jeff. I am not easily offended. (If that was you intention then you need to try harder ;-))
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 9, 2015 at 10:05 am
Gary Varga (12/9/2015)
... No worries Jeff. I am not easily offended. (If that was you intention then you need to try harder ;-))
I take it "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!" wouldn't cut it? 😛
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
December 9, 2015 at 10:20 am
Wayne West (12/9/2015)
Gary Varga (12/9/2015)
... No worries Jeff. I am not easily offended. (If that was you intention then you need to try harder ;-))I take it "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!" wouldn't cut it? 😛
...and I never thought we had met yet you appear to be a family friend :laugh:
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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