July 18, 2011 at 10:40 am
Richard Warr (7/18/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/18/2011)
Richard Warr (7/18/2011)
I'm sure I'm not the only non-American to be sitting here agape at some of the posts in this thread.Care to elaborate?
I suppose I was a bit shocked at the perceived overlap between politics and economics as well as talk of the First Amendment (I take it that's the "Freedom of speech" one).
My job was "offshored" to India in 2002 so I got another job. I don;t really see any difference between America buying cars from Germany or software from India if it's up to spec. It's a World economy these days. I have also outsourced work to both India and Poland with mixed results.
However, many of the jobs that were offshored in the last decade have now come back onshore as companies realised that the promised savings were not always realised.
On a lighter note one bank decided to relocate its Indian call centres back to the UK as people were complaining (normally without justification) that they could not understand Indian accents. So the call centres went to Glasgow where the accents are even stronger 🙂
Yes, most Americans fail to realize how short-sighted their calls for economic isolationism are. What we really need are a revised tax code and a new interpretation of existing anti-monopolistic legislation. Breaking up "Too Big To Fail" corporations will strengthen the economy, increase employment opportunities, and reduce corporate interference in government. But, it's easier to just call for increased tariffs and trash whatever kind of export market we have left.
Smart companies that lose money in offshore operations will bring the jobs back home. Stupid ones will eventually go out of business, and the smart ones will take over.
July 18, 2011 at 10:43 am
GSquared (7/18/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
What I can't understand is: If there are so many of these talented American programmers who have been replaced by offshore contractors, why are 95% of the programmers we interview complete dweebs? Where are all these unemployed experienced IT professionals hiding?They're not unemployed, for the most part.
Skilled people tend to keep jobs. Unskilled tend to lose them, and thus not get the experience needed to become skilled.
It's a Catch-22. Always has been since we dumped apprenticing in favor of public "schools". Will be until business leaders realize that building in-house talent actually pays off in the long run better than advertising and hoping for the best.
+1 M
July 18, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Skilled people tend to keep jobs. Unskilled tend to lose them, and thus not get the experience needed to become skilled.
In today's market I find just the opposite for different reasons. The highly skilled as a general rule also tend to be highly paid and they are the first jettisoned in a layoff. Meanwhile, the unskilled or more junior people tend to retain their job at a lower salary, and inherit the highly paid persons position at their current lower salary. I see this all the time. . An unskilled person filling a skilled position. Bottom line, it does not have much to do with skilled versus unskilled that retains your position. Nowadays, unfortunately, its a numbers game. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 18, 2011 at 8:59 pm
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
$50k - $75k plus nice benefits isn't enough? Sorry -- our systems can't spin gold from straw.
Answer me this, why would I apply for a job paying $50K - $75K when I am making $90K?
There are strong, highly skilled professionals working in jobs that aren't the best looking for something else, but we aren't willing to take a cut to find a better opportunity.
You also have similar people who are unemployed. Chances are most employers aren't going to take a chance on someone who was making $90K on a $50 - $75K position because they may be afraid that this person may (will) jump ship to a better paying position if it comes around.
July 18, 2011 at 9:13 pm
bopeavy (7/15/2011)
Why dont we break it down on an average:1200rent
400groceries
300gas car
100ins car
200eletric
100gas
300health ins
300car payment
2900total monthly cost
34800total year cost
44544with tax cost tossed in
So on an Average to live in america you need roughly $44,544 Just to live!
I couldn't survive on $45K, I barely make it on $90K.
July 19, 2011 at 5:58 am
Lynn Pettis (7/18/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
$50k - $75k plus nice benefits isn't enough? Sorry -- our systems can't spin gold from straw.Answer me this, why would I apply for a job paying $50K - $75K when I am making $90K?
There are strong, highly skilled professionals working in jobs that aren't the best looking for something else, but we aren't willing to take a cut to find a better opportunity.
I wouldn't expect you to. However, if you are a talented mid-level engineer who has been out of work for a year after having been oh-so-cruelly discarded by Corporate America in favor of overseas contractors, then I would expect you to at least show some interest in the position, maybe at a lower salary than what you were making during the boom years. Our company certainly isn't making the same money we were a few years ago.
However, I haven't seen any of these unfortunate talented, long-term unemployed American engineers that the press likes to lament from time to time. The good engineers all seem to find positions right away, which leads me to conclude that the long-term unemployed tech employees were never that good to begin with and maybe should be considering other careers. Now, if there is an enclave of highly talented IT pros out there, please let me know. Maybe we can open up a branch campus or something.
July 19, 2011 at 6:08 am
Lynn Pettis
bopeavy (7/15/2011)
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Why dont we break it down on an average:
1200 rent
400 groceries
300 gas car
100 ins car
200 eletric
100 gas
300 health ins
300 car payment
2900 total monthly cost
34800 total year cost
44544 with tax cost tossed in
So on an Average to live in america you need roughly $44,544 Just to live!
I couldn't survive on $45K, I barely make it on $90K.
This was a example for the guy who was dead set on 50k-75k is a good living. When normally it takes more than that to live.
July 19, 2011 at 6:17 am
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/18/2011)
Lynn Pettis (7/18/2011)
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J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
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$50k - $75k plus nice benefits isn't enough? Sorry -- our systems can't spin gold from straw.
Answer me this, why would I apply for a job paying $50K - $75K when I am making $90K?
There are strong, highly skilled professionals working in jobs that aren't the best looking for something else, but we aren't willing to take a cut to find a better opportunity.
I wouldn't expect you to. However, if you are a talented mid-level engineer who has been out of work for a year after having been oh-so-cruelly discarded by Corporate America in favor of overseas contractors, then I would expect you to at least show some interest in the position, maybe at a lower salary than what you were making during the boom years. Our company certainly isn't making the same money we were a few years ago.
However, I haven't seen any of these unfortunate talented, long-term unemployed American engineers that the press likes to lament from time to time. The good engineers all seem to find positions right away, which leads me to conclude that the long-term unemployed tech employees were never that good to begin with and maybe should be considering other careers. Now, if there is an enclave of highly talented IT pros out there, please let me know. Maybe we can open up a branch campus or something
.
Lets just say for the moment your going to hire one of these morones to run you database. I think you are setting your company up for an attact...SQL injection amoung other things. Lets say with your poor attitude you pis off this lower level person you brought in and he is actually talented. Hes set up your database encryption and when he leaves he takes the encryption key with him. the following week your database crashes and now you cant even do a restore because you can not decrypt the database. there is a lot to consider with screwing around with people you trust with such a vital part of you company..It is easier to just make them happy "pay them!"
July 19, 2011 at 7:29 am
bopeavy (7/19/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/18/2011)
Lynn Pettis (7/18/2011)
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J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
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$50k - $75k plus nice benefits isn't enough? Sorry -- our systems can't spin gold from straw.
Answer me this, why would I apply for a job paying $50K - $75K when I am making $90K?
There are strong, highly skilled professionals working in jobs that aren't the best looking for something else, but we aren't willing to take a cut to find a better opportunity.
I wouldn't expect you to. However, if you are a talented mid-level engineer who has been out of work for a year after having been oh-so-cruelly discarded by Corporate America in favor of overseas contractors, then I would expect you to at least show some interest in the position, maybe at a lower salary than what you were making during the boom years. Our company certainly isn't making the same money we were a few years ago.
However, I haven't seen any of these unfortunate talented, long-term unemployed American engineers that the press likes to lament from time to time. The good engineers all seem to find positions right away, which leads me to conclude that the long-term unemployed tech employees were never that good to begin with and maybe should be considering other careers. Now, if there is an enclave of highly talented IT pros out there, please let me know. Maybe we can open up a branch campus or something
.
Lets just say for the moment your going to hire one of these morones to run you database. I think you are setting your company up for an attact...SQL injection amoung other things. Lets say with your poor attitude you pis off this lower level person you brought in and he is actually talented. Hes set up your database encryption and when he leaves he takes the encryption key with him. the following week your database crashes and now you cant even do a restore because you can not decrypt the database. there is a lot to consider with screwing around with people you trust with such a vital part of you company..It is easier to just make them happy "pay them!"
Life would be great if we all could earn mid six figures. I wish our company could pay everyone that much. However, this is reality.
I would never recommend we hire someone who produces sloppy code, at least not without some serious supervision with an eye to educating and growing the employee. I also would never permit a single person to hold all the "keys to the kingdom", no matter how much we paid the person. Happy employees get run over by taxis also.
To recap here, the original article suggested that a long-term unemployed IT professional should retrain, since being unemployed for over a year might be an indication that one's skills are just not up to snuff. I agreed, stating that while there are a lot of people out there looking for IT work, very few are skilled enough to hold a mid-level position. As an example, I tossed out a mid-level salary range that a person might need to be willing to accept if one wants to find a job in this economy. This was rejected by a number of posters, who apparently feel that it is better to be out of work for over a year than condescend to take a pay cut.
To all this I reply: Do what you will. Just be aware that high-paying jobs are scarce and becoming scarcer, what with the increasing global competition and the economic uncertainty as the European economy continues to unravel, and only top-notch talent will be able to lay claim to a plum position. It seems to me that it is past time to fish or cut bait. If you are in a good position -- great. Enjoy it and make the best of it. If not, get what you can and hold on. We all have a bumpy ride ahead. But, sitting around complaining is not going to change the hard economic realities of the 21st century.
July 19, 2011 at 8:02 am
I think it's a bit unfair to say that people out of work for a year are bad DBAs. They may be great DBAs, but bad at job-hunting, which is a skill in itself.
July 19, 2011 at 8:04 am
Freddie-304292 (7/19/2011)
I think it's a bit unfair to say that people out of work for a year are bad DBAs. They may be great DBAs, but bad at job-hunting, which is a skill in itself.
True enough.
Also may be competing against a field of other skilled DBAs for a limited number of jobs.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 19, 2011 at 8:13 am
I mostly agree with Mr. Klopcic, and you ought to look to train constantly, or retrain if you are struggling to find work. Or move. The unemployment situation varies widely by location.
I have seen, however, more $100k+ jobs in the last year than in the last few. It seems the value brought by data pros is becoming more apparent, though not throughout the industry. I don't know if you can make $150 easy, but I do see very talented people making $90-$110 regularly. Both in job advertisements and some salary disclosures from friends.
Lastly, information is also not evenly distributed, or and certainly not frictionless, especially when it comes to salary ranges. The capability and skills of someone isn't necessarily related to their salary, especially if they have been in a job for a long time (and are now moving) or might be stuck in a location. I know some very talented database people (DBAs and developers) that are working for $60-70k, and comfortable with that. The make a living and while some of them would like to do better, some are ignorant of the rates of others, or not confident enough to ask for more. They have various reasons for not moving.
The situation varies for each of us. We have our own view, our own circumstances, and our own needs. My original thought on this editorial was to point out that we are seeing some jobs from large corporations move, and it's interesting to apply labor laws to those people, just as if they were laid off. That I think will help to make corporations rethink (slightly) the outsourcing move.
I did not (typo fixed), that relatively few people are laid off. The same for outsourcing. There are still millions of small/medium companies here in the US that need IT people, and especially data people. Most of them don't do any outsourcing, except to local companies/consultants.
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July 19, 2011 at 8:17 am
GSquared (7/19/2011)
Freddie-304292 (7/19/2011)
I think it's a bit unfair to say that people out of work for a year are bad DBAs. They may be great DBAs, but bad at job-hunting, which is a skill in itself.True enough.
Also may be competing against a field of other skilled DBAs for a limited number of jobs.
I hope that's not the impression I made with the piece, because that's not what I think. But a percentage of people that can't find jobs (and a percentage of people with them) are bad DBAs, and aren't suited to the position. Just like a percentage of "boot camp" MCDBAs and MCSE's in the late 90s weren't good for the work.
My intention was to say that if you are struggling here, stop and find out if it's because your skills aren't good enough, or suited to the job. Perhaps you should change careers.
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July 21, 2011 at 6:22 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/19/2011)
GSquared (7/19/2011)
Freddie-304292 (7/19/2011)
I think it's a bit unfair to say that people out of work for a year are bad DBAs. They may be great DBAs, but bad at job-hunting, which is a skill in itself.True enough.
Also may be competing against a field of other skilled DBAs for a limited number of jobs.
I hope that's not the impression I made with the piece, because that's not what I think. But a percentage of people that can't find jobs (and a percentage of people with them) are bad DBAs, and aren't suited to the position. Just like a percentage of "boot camp" MCDBAs and MCSE's in the late 90s weren't good for the work.
My intention was to say that if you are struggling here, stop and find out if it's because your skills aren't good enough, or suited to the job. Perhaps you should change careers.
It came across a bit "if you can't get work you must suck". I know that's not what you intended, because I know you better than that, but it does read that way.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 21, 2011 at 7:06 am
GSquared (7/21/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/19/2011)
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GSquared (7/19/2011)
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Freddie-304292 (7/19/2011)
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I think it's a bit unfair to say that people out of work for a year are bad DBAs. They may be great DBAs, but bad at job-hunting, which is a skill in itself.
True enough.
Also may be competing against a field of other skilled DBAs for a limited number of jobs.
I hope that's not the impression I made with the piece, because that's not what I think. But a percentage of people that can't find jobs (and a percentage of people with them) are bad DBAs, and aren't suited to the position. Just like a percentage of "boot camp" MCDBAs and MCSE's in the late 90s weren't good for the work.
My intention was to say that if you are struggling here, stop and find out if it's because your skills aren't good enough, or suited to the job. Perhaps you should change careers.
It came across a bit "if you can't get work you must suck". I know that's not what you intended, because I know you better than that, but it does read that way.
I don't think it came across that way. Then again must everything is taken from your own perception.
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