January 19, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
Here's a good blog post about people just implementing solutions form the internet or forums without caring why:http://www.straightpathsql.com/blog/2009/1/18/empirical-evidence.html
I found this on a tweet by Jonathan Kehayias.
How odd... I just finished writing one that I called "The 'SQL Clone' Epidemic"...
🙂 and I'm in the middle of writing a blog rant titled "Bad Advice". It's funny when lots of people write on similar topics at once.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 19, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
Bob Hovious (1/19/2009)
I keep biohazard emblems for all occasions. Sort of like online mood rings. You too can compile your own library if you just search google images for "biohazard".I would like to read your nonpublished thoughts though. I'm sure I have promulgated a number of less than optimum ideas in my time. My penance for this sin is to immediately concede the superiority of new techniques as I am exposed to them and then promulgate THOSE, until something better comes along.
It depends on HOW you "concede the superiority of new techniques".
The article isn't 100% complete... I abandoned it because I thought it might be too controversial for a forum. I'll send you what I have, so far.
Bob, the email address you have on SQL Server Central is, apparently, non-functional. Would you send me an email with "SQL SERVER ARTICLE" in the header so that I can find it if it gets clobbered by my spam filter? Thanks. And, no... don't post your email address here... you don't need for what would happen then.
--Jeff Moden
January 19, 2009 at 3:51 pm
GilaMonster (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
That's probably my favorite feature of the google toolbar, spell checking just like in Word.Firefox has that built in. Why do you think I make so few spelling mistakes. It is not, I assure you, because I can spell.
It is a handy feature of Firefox. Has saved me an embarrassing typo or two when writing devotionals, which is about the last place you want to see that sort of thing as a writer. Unfortunately, I tend to use IE to browse SSC.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
January 19, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
Here's a good blog post about people just implementing solutions form the internet or forums without caring why:http://www.straightpathsql.com/blog/2009/1/18/empirical-evidence.html
I found this on a tweet by Jonathan Kehayias.
How odd... I just finished writing one that I called "The 'SQL Clone' Epidemic"... decided not to publish it because it gets a bit nasty about experts knocking their rings instead of providing demonstrable code or, in the case of the article cited above, emperical evidence that something is actually true and not just a myth or someones feeling (usually couched in something like "Well! In my 10 years of experience as a .... ".
Here's a tease from the article...
The code may or may not be tested against the data the user provided (if any was provided), but because of the trusted nature of the source(s) of the code, everyone walks away happy because the problem has been solved. The OP, who went from having no solution, now has a solution from a trusted source and will not only use the code, but add the code to their code library and will frequently share the code with others at the place of work. Further, the code does the job so nicely for them, they may actually buy the book that was cited as part of the post that provided the solution because there's bound to be other nifty solutions in the book. They're so impressed that they may even provide the code on future posts on forums as the way to solve this very common problem for others.
And, isn't that what all good souls do? Share solutions, identify trusted sources, copy working code, help others in need…
…and…
[font="Arial Black"]spread the epidemic?[/font]
I don't know if it's too controversial. Adam Machanic has made similar comments in posts over the years, especially on his blogs. And he's gone head-to-head with some of the accepted experts of our field because he doesn't accept an answer just because. The difference is you're attacking the problem head-on, but that's not a bad thing.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
January 19, 2009 at 4:40 pm
K. Brian Kelley (1/19/2009)
GilaMonster (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
That's probably my favorite feature of the google toolbar, spell checking just like in Word.Firefox has that built in. Why do you think I make so few spelling mistakes. It is not, I assure you, because I can spell.
It is a handy feature of Firefox. Has saved me an embarrassing typo or two when writing devotionals, which is about the last place you want to see that sort of thing as a writer. Unfortunately, I tend to use IE to browse SSC.
Of course when the typo is still a word you need an editor. My original post "form" instead of "from".
My classic typo that gets past the spell checker is when I mess up "does not". Can anyone guess what my typo is?
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
January 19, 2009 at 4:56 pm
RBarryYoung (1/19/2009)
I'll take a look at it if you want, Jeff. Just to see how much of it is about me. 😀
"You have mail". 😛
--Jeff Moden
January 19, 2009 at 4:58 pm
GilaMonster (1/19/2009)
🙂 and I'm in the middle of writing a blog rant titled "Bad Advice". It's funny when lots of people write on similar topics at once.
Maybe not so funny... must be an indication of a real problem that we (the frequent posters) all agree on. 🙂
--Jeff Moden
January 19, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
K. Brian Kelley (1/19/2009)
GilaMonster (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
That's probably my favorite feature of the google toolbar, spell checking just like in Word.Firefox has that built in. Why do you think I make so few spelling mistakes. It is not, I assure you, because I can spell.
It is a handy feature of Firefox. Has saved me an embarrassing typo or two when writing devotionals, which is about the last place you want to see that sort of thing as a writer. Unfortunately, I tend to use IE to browse SSC.
Of course when the typo is still a word you need an editor. My original post "form" instead of "from".
My classic typo that gets past the spell checker is when I mess up "does not". Can anyone guess what my typo is?
Heh... that's easy... "does".
--Jeff Moden
January 19, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
Of course when the typo is still a word you need an editor. My original post "form" instead of "from".
My classic typo that gets past the spell checker is when I mess up "does not". Can anyone guess what my typo is?
Heh... that's easy... "does".
Typo of does not = doe snot. More entertaining than just does (leaving out the not).
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
January 19, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
Here's a good blog post about people just implementing solutions form the internet or forums without caring why:http://www.straightpathsql.com/blog/2009/1/18/empirical-evidence.html
I found this on a tweet by Jonathan Kehayias.
How odd... I just finished writing one that I called "The 'SQL Clone' Epidemic"... decided not to publish it because it gets a bit nasty about experts knocking their rings instead of providing demonstrable code or, in the case of the article cited above, emperical evidence that something is actually true and not just a myth or someones feeling (usually couched in something like "Well! In my 10 years of experience as a .... ".
Here's a tease from the article...
The code may or may not be tested against the data the user provided (if any was provided), but because of the trusted nature of the source(s) of the code, everyone walks away happy because the problem has been solved. The OP, who went from having no solution, now has a solution from a trusted source and will not only use the code, but add the code to their code library and will frequently share the code with others at the place of work. Further, the code does the job so nicely for them, they may actually buy the book that was cited as part of the post that provided the solution because there's bound to be other nifty solutions in the book. They're so impressed that they may even provide the code on future posts on forums as the way to solve this very common problem for others.
And, isn't that what all good souls do? Share solutions, identify trusted sources, copy working code, help others in need…
…and…
[font="Arial Black"]spread the epidemic?[/font]
I wrote the above linked article, decided to come over to this thread and see why all the referral traffic (my blog is still new, so I still enjoy seeing those stats.. I presume it will die down). I would love to see your post that never was (feel free to e-mail it to me or post it 🙂 )
I like your comments above. My point is not knocking the experts helping folks which I don't think is your entire point either. It is more the folks who don't take an opportunity to explore "why" and "how". They take the first search result that they find on google in a forum and implement it. Still others will be a bit more discerning and only take the first answer posted by someone with alphabet soup arranged after their name. Still, without testing.
Now there are times when we have to do that but it is scary. You search experts-exchange or the forums/newsgroups and it doesn't take long to see a poorly formed question, a horrid answer and no followup from the OP (Or a "thanks" or accept of the question on EE). That scares the crap out of me, because you know folks are implementing these things in production environments without any thought of "trust but verify".
It probably annoys some folks but when I give answers I -try- to give answers to unasked portions of the question or give warnings/lessons/links that help explain something. It does have it's root in what this thread is about - poorly formed questions by folks who are in roles they may not have chosen or are underqualified for.
I am rambling... I haven't been on these forums in a long time. Maybe I should start coming back. I've always loved SSC for articles and forum reading..
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
January 19, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Jeff,
I'd be happy to comment on it as well. You should publish it, get your opinions out there and let people know that there is not necessarily a reason to just live with someone's advice just because they're an "expert." We make mistakes too.
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com
January 19, 2009 at 10:51 pm
K. Brian Kelley (1/19/2009)
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
Of course when the typo is still a word you need an editor. My original post "form" instead of "from".
My classic typo that gets past the spell checker is when I mess up "does not". Can anyone guess what my typo is?
Heh... that's easy... "does".
Typo of does not = doe snot. More entertaining than just does (leaving out the not).
Ding! Ding! We have a winner! I learned to look for this one when I heard a co-worker cracking up after I sent out an email and he replied with a nicely worded, yet sarcastic remark.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
January 20, 2009 at 1:21 am
Jack Corbett (1/19/2009)
My classic typo that gets past the spell checker is when I mess up "does not". Can anyone guess what my typo is?
I keep mixing 'or' and 'of'. Spell checker doesn't notice. Grammar checker (in word) doesn't usually notice and it has a disturbing tendency to completely change the meaning of the sentence.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 20, 2009 at 1:28 am
Jeff Moden (1/19/2009)
GilaMonster (1/19/2009)
🙂 and I'm in the middle of writing a blog rant titled "Bad Advice". It's funny when lots of people write on similar topics at once.Maybe not so funny... must be an indication of a real problem that we (the frequent posters) all agree on. 🙂
And here's another one, albeit a bit older http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2008/11/so-you-wanna-be-a-rock-roll-star-part-2/
Extract:
Being an expert means having credibility. It doesn’t matter how much you know if people don’t trust your answers.
If you don’t know the answer to something, don’t fake it. Say you don’t know, shut up, and get out of the way. People will be refreshed with your honesty, and they’ll be much more likely to believe you when you do open your mouth about something.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 20, 2009 at 9:31 am
On the question of testing the answers so you understand them, I highly recommend a proof-of-concept environment. I keep a database named "ProofOfConcept" on a dev server. Very specifically, on a dev server that I can junk and rebuild easily if something goes horribly wrong with it. (Which, when testing things like OLE automation, can go very, very wrong!)
That's been my main means of learning T-SQL over the years.
Also very handy as a place to build solutions for questions on these forums. Build a solution, and if it beefs up the log file or something like that, I can drop and re-create the database without worrying about losing anything that matters.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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