July 12, 2008 at 11:27 pm
"easy to dismiss MVPs as marketing shills for MS, but before you do"
You *should* dismiss them first as marketing shills, because that is what they are by definition. It isn't like an MVP is a PH.D - it is a pseudo technical marketing designation that is arbitrarily awarded by Microsoft for the benefit of Microsoft. Microsoft likely created this designation for one reason, to appeal to insecure geeks who need group assurance. Even better if you can get knowledgeable experts involved so they can be coerced (via social pressure) to spew the M$ company line.
Now if the individual who happens to be an MVP is an expert who provides good information, and goes out of his/her way to help other people - hey good deal. But, because of the MVP you *should* immediately be suspect of their information and analyze it critically. As a educated knowledge worker you have to be very discerning and critical of information, as there is a lot of suspect information available, and a good amount is tainted with marketing information or direction.
It is just another subtle but relatively harmless scam that companies with aggressive marketing machines dream up. It all depends on whether the information consumers buy into it. As M$ has an education arm as well as its company arm - knowledge workers might be fooled into thinking it is yet another source of valuable information or status to be worked towards. "Evangelists" are marketing whores, and as such recognize them as such, treat any information critically, and don't believe every word or that there isn't an alternative. At the same time if you evaluate the info as valuable use it, if it is well thought out expert information use it. Develop your abilities to independently assess and evaluate information - then implement it.
I have met M$ employee "experts" who are completely full of crap, and do nothing more than spew a the M$ party line. I have also met M$ employees and consultants who are honest and provide balanced and expert information. I have also met a lot of experts who have nothing to do with any software vendor, and whose expert opinion is just as good as anything you would get from a software vendor - or better because they have a multi-disciplinary approach validated by experience.
July 13, 2008 at 6:27 am
Gosh, I was wondering where all the MS-haters had gotten too.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
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July 13, 2008 at 9:58 am
Looks like they're right here.
Or we have someone upset they didn't get some recognition.
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July 13, 2008 at 11:46 am
Heh... cgnospam words are pretty strong and most folks who have an MVP would certainly be upset about being called a "marketing whore" or maybe even an "evangelist" :hehe:, but let's clarify some things... things like the following are actually wrong, but not for the reason you may think... 😉
But, because of the MVP you *should* immediately be suspect of their information and analyze it critically. As a educated knowledge worker you have to be very discerning and critical of information, as there is a lot of suspect information available, and a good amount is tainted with marketing information or direction.
I've seen it where some MVP's suddenly think they're a god just because they got a service award and start spouting all sorts off ridiculous edicts on blogs and becoming incredibly arrogant on forums. Sure, they get some inside info from Microsoft, but it still has to be applied correctly. Cgnospam is correct... becoming an MVP doesn't automatically make you a PHD of whatever program you got it for... it's a respected "service" award and folks need to remember that.
Here's why I say cgnospam's comments aren't entirely correct... I don't limit suspicions to just MVP's... I've seen all sorts of folks with all sorts of "qual" lettering after their name and it means nothing because they're still an idiot (not everyone... just making an example), arrogant, or just plain wrong. Yes, yes... some folks are actually good at doing the things their qual lettering states, but many more are not.
So I agree, but I'll take it to the next level... "immediately be suspect of [b]EVERYONE's[/b] information and analyze it critically" whether they have letters after their name, or not, but especially if they're bragging about their supposed intelligence or skill... there's a lot of heavy breathing feather fluffers out there that really have no skill at all, or worse, have dangerous opinions that could cost you some data or server performance.
On the flip side of things, congrats to all MVP's for being noticed, one way or the other. It's a big world with lots of people.
--Jeff Moden
July 13, 2008 at 11:52 am
cgnospam (7/12/2008)
I have met M$ employee "experts" who are completely full of crap, and do nothing more than spew a the M$ party line. I have also met M$ employees and consultants who are honest and provide balanced and expert information. I have also met a lot of experts who have nothing to do with any software vendor, and whose expert opinion is just as good as anything you would get from a software vendor - or better because they have a multi-disciplinary approach validated by experience.
Conspicuous in its absence is the use case: "knowledgable people who weigh all the options and choose Microsoft as the best among them."
I'm an MVP and I don't know everything. There. I admitted it (again even). I like to solve technical and business problems - that's the core of my motivation. I reap immense personal satisfaction from helping others do the same - that's how the core of my motivation is expressed to the community.
If you, cgnospam, are experiencing a technical issue with a Microsoft product, I probably know someone who can help. There's a chance I can help. If you wish to disparage my efforts because I am an MVP, that is certainly your choice and I sincerely wish you the best in finding someone who is both experienced with the nuances of a Microsoft technology and meets your criteria for reputable de-coupling from Microsoft itself.
As for your attempts at rhetoric; you're about ten years too late. That language was popular and somewhat effective during the late 1990's and early 2000's - when there were lawsuits flying about and multi-hour depositions of Bill Gates and threats of breaking up Microsoft. There are sites about filled with folks who share your fears. As I doubt you'll accept my offer to help with any particular technical issue, I refer you to them. They can be found by browsing to your favorite search engine and entering some inflammatory anti-Microsoft terms.
Best,
Andy
Andy Leonard, Chief Data Engineer, Enterprise Data & Analytics
July 13, 2008 at 1:06 pm
"If you wish to disparage my efforts because I am an MVP, that is certainly your choice and I sincerely wish you the best in finding someone who is both experienced with the nuances of a Microsoft technology and meets your criteria for reputable de-coupling from Microsoft itself."
I don't believe I *personally* disparaged anyone - I made a valid point against a pseudo-technical marketing based designation of little value. *You* took it as a personal insult, because *you* happen to have that designation. And this is a perfect example of how membership in a group influences perception. Not only have you leapt to the assumption that you must defend yourself but you also must defend the group and the designation. If you had bothered to read for content instead of instantly trying to spew some M$ party line, you would see I am not against M$ program any more than any other company program that is designed to reward geeks who can parrot company party lines.
I like the insinuation of the my somehow disparaging poor defenseless M$ with *rhetoric*, and just being a bad guy with a chip on my shoulder - what a crock! - anyone who thinks M$ or any other multi-billion dollar bureaucratic company is either some innocent lamb or that they really care about a client beyond a profit motive needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Case in point is being manipulated for chump change or a little fictitious public recognition. M$ isn't the enemy but it isn't a friend either - it is just another company looking to make money. Oracle or IBM aren't any different. As someone who dealt with vendors for years, any thought of glorifying M$ (or any other vendor) in any way has been eliminated by experience. Just trying to hold vendors to contacts without them trying to stuff 10-20K worth of "gottchas", or failing on time frames, is work enough. They can keep their hero biscuits and gratuitous designations, its meaningless to me. The only thing that matters is managing the relationship to get the job done - which means recognizing the other party for what they are.
The idea that you should examine *all* information critically is true, especially from forums on the Internet. However my point is that you have to especially careful of information that is qualified by the presenters designation - especially if that designation is something dreamed up by a marketer. You have to examine that information especially critically.
Just like this thread shows, if you start a little back slapping session and there is a dissenting view point often the group will be tempted to side with a supposed "authority" without evaluating the information properly, especially if they think there will be a reward for their support. Using "evangelists" both online and offline helps companies use this group dynamic to shape the message and perception of the messenger. This leads the uninformed to conclude that information from several sources may be good, whereas it may be tainted - and what you are getting is a company sponsored directed message. Being a knowledgeable consumer of information you have to critically examine both the information and sometimes the source in order to make a reasoned assessment.
July 13, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Well, cgnospam, "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."
I doubt we're going to reach any kind of concensus and that's fine.
Good luck!
Andy
Andy Leonard, Chief Data Engineer, Enterprise Data & Analytics
July 13, 2008 at 7:08 pm
cgnospam (7/12/2008)[hrYou *should* dismiss them first as marketing shills, because that is what they are by definition. It isn't like an MVP is a PH.D - it is a pseudo technical marketing designation that is arbitrarily awarded by Microsoft for the benefit of Microsoft. Microsoft likely created this designation for one reason, to appeal to insecure geeks who need group assurance. Even better if you can get knowledgeable experts involved so they can be coerced (via social pressure) to spew the M$ company line.
No, I shouldn't dismiss them first as marketing shills. From my personal experience with just about every MVP I've run across I've found the following:
(a) They don't push Microsoft products out of some loyal obligation to a company they don't work for.
(b) They have offered non-Microsoft solutions and run non-Microsoft technologies when those are more appropriate (Frank Kalis running Joomla! for http://www.insidesql.org/ is a good example).
(c) They generally have good knowledge in the category for which they are an MVP for.
(d) They are genuinely helpful to those who are in need of help.
Do I assume every MVP has all the answers? No, because they don't, as Andy Leonard has already posted. But I also don't dismiss anyone as a marketing shill because I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I learned a long time ago that generalizations tend to be wrong more often than they're right. Therefore, I look at each person individually and make an assessment upon what they do and say. That's how I want people to treat me. To treat them any differently would be wrong. I apply that standard to everyone, MVP or not.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 13, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Well said Brian.
and cognospam, if you haven't disparaged people with your first statement, I'm not sure I'd like to see it when you do.
no one here claims MVPs are the experts because of the MVP. But many of them are experts that give their time to others.
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July 14, 2008 at 8:33 am
Microsoft (the company) earned the hostility it continues to encounter from certain geeks the world over. Unfortunately, innocent people outside of the company who had nothing to do with Microsoft's illegal and aggressive business practices often unfairly get tarred with the same brush. The people I see on this forum appear to be working hard to help people with technical issues, not working for MS to push a particular product.
People come here I believe because they already have MSSQL installed and running and need to make it work, not because they are trying to decide WHICH database platform to go with In most cases, our bosses made that decision for us a long time ago 🙂 and we just have to make it work. MSSQL is a complicated product, and notwithstanding what MS and vendors and Gartner tell us (about how EASY MSSQL is to use), to use it well, efficiently and correctly is a intensive effort requiring a lot of study and help. Doubly so for us who learned all of our database skills on another product on different Operating systems.
So cgnospam, the war with MS is and will continue, but the people you encounter here aren't the people responsible for waging it. I make no secret of my preference for Oracle or mySQL running on Linux, but when one of my customers brings me an MSSQL based solution, I will do my professional best to make it work to the very top level of efficiency. People on this forum, including the MVPs, are a great and helpful resource to that end. Don't shoot wide and hit them when you aim for Gates and Ballmer 😀
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