August 22, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Talent Crunch
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August 23, 2011 at 12:13 am
I do not understand how you can not mention other countries like China and India which at least wants in on the European market. However, some years ago you could get 4 or more people for the price of one Swede and now you get maybe 3 or less. In China the salaries has gone up a lot too in IT. So maybe the threat coming from the low price countries are getting smaller, not to take into account they have a different culture which is always problematic for companies in different countries to come to terms with. On a different note, I even read a news that call-centers that has been moved from usa to India is being moved back again.
August 23, 2011 at 2:28 am
However, some years ago you could get 4 or more people for the price of one Swede and now you get maybe 3 or less. In China the salaries has gone up a lot too in IT.
Speaking from India, I say that this (moving jobs to India) is not good for India. It has pushed up salary levels from $200 per month 10 years ago to $2000 per month now and everyone and I mean EVERYONE is getting more and more greedy. This is bad. It has started people in a mad rush for riches as soon as possible. Wealth is good but not if it is at the expense of other qualities like lack of greed.
So maybe the threat coming from the low price countries are getting smaller, not to take into account they have a different culture which is always problematic for companies in different countries to come to terms with. On a different note, I even read a news that call-centers that has been moved from usa to India is being moved back again.
Call centres are one of the biggest drivers of greed here because of the high salaries they offer. Pretty soon they will be uncompetitive to the salaries of US and Europe at the rate they are increasing.
August 23, 2011 at 3:47 am
umailedit (8/23/2011)
However, some years ago you could get 4 or more people for the price of one Swede and now you get maybe 3 or less. In China the salaries has gone up a lot too in IT.
Speaking from India, I say that this (moving jobs to India) is not good for India. It has pushed up salary levels from $200 per month 10 years ago to $2000 per month now and everyone and I mean EVERYONE is getting more and more greedy. This is bad. It has started people in a mad rush for riches as soon as possible. Wealth is good but not if it is at the expense of other qualities like lack of greed.
So maybe the threat coming from the low price countries are getting smaller, not to take into account they have a different culture which is always problematic for companies in different countries to come to terms with. On a different note, I even read a news that call-centers that has been moved from usa to India is being moved back again.
Call centres are one of the biggest drivers of greed here because of the high salaries they offer. Pretty soon they will be uncompetitive to the salaries of US and Europe at the rate they are increasing.
You certainly do offer an interesting perspective.
Greed might be bad in some ways but it's one thing that drives development and research forward so that companies can gain more. If a company in India is earning a lot of cash, I see no problem with the people working there demanding better salaries.
I would like to hear what you can tell me about this, it would be interesting.
However, I heard that in China and India, once an employee has worked for a year it's common to switch jobs even if it's only a slight increase on salary and that companies are having trouble with this. While this is simple market economy and the companies themselves could have better dialogs with their employees to solve such issues by simply giving the employee better salary or new opportunities within the company this is not common. This I could see creates an unhealthy industry, even thou the solutions are not that difficult.
August 23, 2011 at 7:05 am
IceDread (8/23/2011)
I do not understand how you can not mention other countries like China and India which at least wants in on the European market.
This was just about the market in the US. I didn't look to research all other countries at the same time.
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August 23, 2011 at 7:30 am
Interesting article. Definite food for though on keeping up on skills development. Thankfully the softer skills can be developed over a longer period of time.
I enjoyed the report from DICE, even though I am from England. One thing that I found interesting from the report is the focus on college graduates to fill the gap. I do not know about the US, however in the UK there has been falling birth rates for many years. This will in turn mean a potentially smaller graduate population in the future.
To fill the gap will mean that companies will surely have to target 'older' workers, perhaps without degrees. These type of recruits will possibly have the other types of skills needed. Given the fast changing nature of technology (thinking of phone apps, etc) it is possible that a graduate will not necessarily have the right technical skills, let alone the other skill that are vital to a business.
The comments on the rising IT salaries in India were interesting. It reminds me of the stories about car manufacturing I was told as a youngster where staff used to regularly switch between companies for higher money (sometimes on a weekly basis). Great for the car workers at the time however not for their long term employment future.
August 23, 2011 at 8:40 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/23/2011)
IceDread (8/23/2011)
I do not understand how you can not mention other countries like China and India which at least wants in on the European market.
Maybe I didnt phrase myself properly, but I thought it would be of interest as foreign countries affects us more and more. Diving deep into all markets is of course not an easy task and perhaps not what the post was about.
August 23, 2011 at 9:51 am
Higher salaries in IT and software industry come with a price tag, and that is permanent learning. After more that 40 years in the industry, I still spend at least 6 hours of my every weekend just studying to keep up. That's not paid, and mostly at my expense. (Books, Azure subscription, a home server, whatever is needed.)
I hope that SQL Server will carry me out. I had many colleagues who were well-paid COBOL or Assembler programmers and who now are much less paid teachers of English as a second language. They do not show in unemployed statistics but they do not have a job they for 15 or 20 years.
August 23, 2011 at 10:03 am
I appreciate your posting this article, Steve. It is encouraging news. Especially during a time when there's not a lot of encouraging news. I'd like to emphasize the last point you made, which probably won't get a lot of discussion here (and probably shouldn't), but as you said, the crunch is in talented people. It's up to each of us to keep our technical and soft skills up to date.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
August 23, 2011 at 10:16 am
I don't know if it would be a bad thing if some IT careers didn't require a college degree. After all, is the standard help desk call that much more difficult than HVAC or car repair? It can certainly get harder than your average HVAC or car repair but so can the other repairs. More important than the knowledge is the ability to learn (which college can help with), problem solve (which college helps with less), and discipline to do the job right (which I'm not sure college helps with at all.) I have a degree but wouldn't be surprised if I could have gotten where I needed to be for the jobs I've had since I left in less than two years. Most of what I've learned that's been used on the job was learned at one job or another.
August 23, 2011 at 10:55 am
cfradenburg (8/23/2011)
I don't know if it would be a bad thing if some IT careers didn't require a college degree. After all, is the standard help desk call that much more difficult than HVAC or car repair? It can certainly get harder than your average HVAC or car repair but so can the other repairs. More important than the knowledge is the ability to learn (which college can help with), problem solve (which college helps with less), and discipline to do the job right (which I'm not sure college helps with at all.) I have a degree but wouldn't be surprised if I could have gotten where I needed to be for the jobs I've had since I left in less than two years. Most of what I've learned that's been used on the job was learned at one job or another.
HVAC usually requires an AA degree, and becoming a certified mechanic requires the equivalent (depending on where you live). Most basic level PC techs can get by with A+ certification. But, I don't think that addresses the gist of the problem, which is that businesses cannot expand unless they can link inventory and payroll and sales systems together to keep up with the competition and meet federal and industry regs. Your average Associates level graduate will not be equipped to handle that sort of thing.
August 23, 2011 at 11:32 am
Revenant (8/23/2011)
Higher salaries in IT and software industry come with a price tag, and that is permanent learning. After more that 40 years in the industry, I still spend at least 6 hours of my every weekend just studying to keep up. That's not paid, and mostly at my expense. (Books, Azure subscription, a home server, whatever is needed.)I hope that SQL Server will carry me out. I had many colleagues who were well-paid COBOL or Assembler programmers and who now are much less paid teachers of English as a second language. They do not show in unemployed statistics but they do not have a job they for 15 or 20 years.
I think Revenant has a very, very solid point. I know tons of people who have been in IT for 5 years or less. I know a fair amount of people who are at my level, around 15 years. I know a few people with 25 years, and exactly two people who's been doing it as long as revenant.
The industry as a whole is exciting because of the continuous change and learning opportunities-- but I wonder if the other side of the issue, relatively short careers and continuous turnover, is worth exploring. My admittedly cynical take is that behind every 'Tech Crunch' article, there's a business complaining that 'We can't hire senior engineers for entry level wages!'
August 23, 2011 at 11:58 am
cfradenburg (8/23/2011)
I don't know if it would be a bad thing if some IT careers didn't require a college degree. After all, is the standard help desk call that much more difficult than HVAC or car repair? . . .
It depends on the level of support. Microsoft Customer Assistance Portal and Online Assisted Support level I and II agents do not have to have college degrees. Level III support are typically QA on the respective teams (in our case, say, one of the many components of SQL Server).
And it that is an exception from the rule, it is a sizeable one: there are ~12k level I and II agents.
August 23, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Revenant (8/23/2011)
Higher salaries in IT and software industry come with a price tag, and that is permanent learning. After more that 40 years in the industry, I still spend at least 6 hours of my every weekend just studying to keep up. That's not paid, and mostly at my expense. (Books, Azure subscription, a home server, whatever is needed.)
Speaking of weekends, this reminds me of the SQL Saturday events which are being held all over the country (U.S. at least, not sure how many are held in other countries). I just got back from one (as a sponsor/speaker) in South Florida, and I have to say I truly admire all the people who take time out of their weekends to come learn about various SQL Server-related topics so they can be more effective in their jobs and help advance their careers.
August 23, 2011 at 2:02 pm
What's really spooky to me is how little a lot of job applicants know about the basics and how many of them don't know what they don't know. I interviewed one fellow who stated that he had 8 years of experience working with both SQL Server and Oracle (perfect for that particular job) and rated himself as a "9 out of 10" on both right on his resume. As you read the following, keep in mind that he was applying for an "SQL Developer" postion.
I conduct my interviews a bit like a lie-detector test. I help make folks feel at ease and then tell them that I'm going to start of with some really simple questions just to get them relaxed. When I asked what the SQL function for returning the current date and time in SQL Server is, the answer was "I don't know... we always used the GUI for that."
When I interviewed one fellow for an SQL Server "DBA" position, it did the same thing... asked an easy question to start with which was, "What is a clustered index?" His response was "I never worked on clustered systems."
Even more spooky is that most of the folks couldn't make it through the first 3 questions similar in nature/level of ease and I've interviewed dozens of people sent to me by well meaning recruiters who all insisted that the people they were sending me where "highly qualified". It shows that even the recruiters don't know what they don't know.
--Jeff Moden
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