March 31, 2009 at 3:54 pm
jfox (3/31/2009)
My motorcycle gets 45...
I am surprised that is all you get. Must be a hog. (grin).
There's perspective for you.
March 31, 2009 at 4:16 pm
I'm not sure most people made bad choices. there are always some that made poor financial choices, but buying a larger car, or a less efficient car because you liked it/wanted it, isn't a bad choice.
I'll say again that I would buy this argument only in a vacuum, where no other factors come into play. Sure we can buy things just because we want them without thought to any other factors. But if we do it too often without regard to other issues (for example whether or not we can afford the purchase), we run into individual and societal problems (think housing crises). The bigger picture is that we really had made a bad choice.
To explain my point: Say I love the feel of driving a luxury car. Say I want it so badly because (some sob story about never having luxury growing up and needing the space for bla bla, etc. etc so that everyone can understand why I made the decision I made). But if that luxury car:
...puts my family out of a home because it is so expensive (I'm just making a point) and
...kills all the baby fish and
...gives 30% of the kids in my town asthma and
...puts thousands of people out of work as major factories shut down, because I'm not the only one who decided to purchase a car type that has no future in the world,
...then I'm thinking it's a bad choice.
If I buy that luxury car, I didn't think about the context in which my decision was being made. The cons outweigh pros in the long run. I'm not saying there are no benefits/pros to making selfish, feel-good-in-the-moment decisions. I'm saying that the cons can be bigger than the pros and people can miss the bigger picture by only focusing on the pros and thus make bad decisions. I happen to feel that Americans in general (not naming anyone specifically) have made just these types of bad decisions - including say supporting a government who created tax breaks for giant trucks. Government of the people, by the people...
By the way. I'm including myself in this generic set of humans I'm condemning. I'm sure I have made plenty of bad decisions about many things. Just not my choice of car. (BIG GRIN!)
March 31, 2009 at 4:24 pm
JJ B (3/31/2009)
I'm not sure most people made bad choices. there are always some that made poor financial choices, but buying a larger car, or a less efficient car because you liked it/wanted it, isn't a bad choice.
I'll say again that I would buy this argument only in a vacuum, where no other factors come into play. Sure we can buy things just because we want them without thought to any other factors. But if we do it too often without regard to other issues (for example whether or not we can afford the purchase), we run into individual and societal problems (think housing crises). The bigger picture is that we really had made a bad choice.
To explain my point: Say I love the feel of driving a luxury car. Say I want it so badly because (some sob story about never having luxury growing up and needing the space for bla bla, etc. etc so that everyone can understand why I made the decision I made). But if that luxury car:
...puts my family out of a home because it is so expensive (I'm just making a point) and
...kills all the baby fish and
...gives 30% of the kids in my town asthma and
...puts thousands of people out of work as major factories shut down, because I'm not the only one who decided to purchase a car type that has no future in the world,
...then I'm thinking it's a bad choice.
If I buy that luxury car, I didn't think about the context in which my decision was being made. The cons outweigh pros in the long run. I'm not saying there are no benefits/pros to making selfish, feel-good-in-the-moment decisions. I'm saying that the cons can be bigger than the pros and people can miss the bigger picture by only focusing on the pros and thus make bad decisions. I happen to feel that Americans in general (not naming anyone specifically) have made just these types of bad decisions - including say supporting a government who created tax breaks for giant trucks. Government of the people, by the people...
By the way. I'm including myself in this generic set of humans I'm condemning. I'm sure I have made plenty of bad decisions about many things. Just not my choice of car. (BIG GRIN!)
I'm done. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.
March 31, 2009 at 9:34 pm
you're kind of assuming that purchasing that luxury car does those things. It's debatable to what extent that happens.
Humans do many short-sighted decisions. No doubt about that. I'm just not sure that someone purchasing an SUV or luxury car means that.
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April 1, 2009 at 5:25 am
Everyone these days seems to love to vilify the Hummer, but most people only know of it as the H1 military based vehicle that was made famous (and available to the public) by the Governor of California - who now, oddly, is a big critic of the Big 3. The Hummer H2 and H3 models are based on full size and mid size truck chassis, and do not get the horrible mileage with which they are attributed. And there are people that love them. My broker in DC drives one because he can carry his dirt bike on a rack on the back bumper for his weekend trips into western MD and WV. One of my neighbors gets worse mileage with his Lexus sedan than his son's Hummer H3.
There have been many comments in this thread about the 'bad choices' Americans make about their vehicles. Well isn't that what our FREE society is all about - making free choices? I can make thousands of judgement calls about what you spend your money on. Here's one for all of you that like to criticize the vehicles others drive: it's bad for society if you choose to perpetuate urban sprawl and live out in the suburbs so you have to commute long distances. I think if you have a commute longer than 10 or 15 minutes YOU have made a a BAD CHOICE for society. Double that if you live in a large house that has a big carbon footprint. It's not just cars that pollute you know...
BTW, I live 4 miles from work - when I'm not telecommuting. I drive a Dodge minivan in the winter, that according to the trip computer has an average of 19.5 mpg over the 20K miles that are on it. The summer car is a Corvette that gets 29 mpg cruising on the interstate.
April 1, 2009 at 7:16 am
:w00t: With a planet facing ecological stresses everywhere, and a human population already too large for a sustainable future, it is saddening to read from people who assert their right to a consumptive lifestyle -- with no sense of consequences for their actions.
Five percent of the world's population consumes 25% of its resources, and produces 50% of its waste. That 5% is US.
If we do not curtail our consumption, reduce our waste, and control our population growth ourselves, there will come a time when it will be done for us -- through the draconian measures of government.
The world cannot sustain the American lifestyle without ecological collapse.
Let's be wiser in our decisions and greener in our actions, if not for ourselves then for our children. For your actions today impact the kind of future your children will enjoy or suffer tomorrow.
April 1, 2009 at 8:30 am
Doug Beers (4/1/2009)
The summer car is a Corvette that gets 29 mpg cruising on the interstate.
Wow, that's pretty good. I need to run the 911 through a tankful on the highway and see what I get. My guess is that on my regular runs around town I'm around 20mpg if I'm good with the throttle.
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April 1, 2009 at 11:09 am
mmelio (4/1/2009)
:w00t: With a planet facing ecological stresses everywhere, and a human population already too large for a sustainable future, it is saddening to read from people who assert their right to a consumptive lifestyle -- with no sense of consequences for their actions.Five percent of the world's population consumes 25% of its resources, and produces 50% of its waste. That 5% is US.
If we do not curtail our consumption, reduce our waste, and control our population growth ourselves, there will come a time when it will be done for us -- through the draconian measures of government.
The world cannot sustain the American lifestyle without ecological collapse.
Let's be wiser in our decisions and greener in our actions, if not for ourselves then for our children. For your actions today impact the kind of future your children will enjoy or suffer tomorrow.
What a load. There are just as many scientists who say the "ecological stresses everywhere" scare is a load of false information. And here comes the "zero population" arguments... again. And the "American Lifestyle" load of garbage.
A single massive volcanic eruption spews far more pollution than any and all things man has done in many years.
You know what? I do believe in trying to leave the world a better place than I found it. I go out of my way to give service and donate and make life better. What is really at argument here is what "better" entails... and that is what is wildly debated.
April 1, 2009 at 11:26 am
It's up to each person to decide what they believe. Resources are always un-evenly distributed, even in the "equal" communist societies.
Is the world over populated? Is there a problem with resources? There is scarcity, but it's not clear where the boundaries are. I'm not sure it's deciding that you want to drive a particular car.
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April 1, 2009 at 2:22 pm
🙂 It's good that you "try to leave the world a better place."
But, to use an analogy from the health arena, you cannot make a patient better if your diagnosis is faulty. Its vitally important that we understand what is ailing our planet earth, before we prescribe a "better" remedy. Right?
So don't believe me about climate change and the devastating impact of human consumption on the environment.
Check out these links:
1. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: http://www.ipcc.ch/
2. Species Extinction: http://www.history.com/states.do?action=detail&state=Species%20Extinction&contentType=State_Generic&contentId=59136&parentId=earth
3. Resource depletion and population growth:
http://record.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/12786.html
And these references are just the tip of the iceberg (no pun intended).
If you have sources that tell you otherwise, I would suggest that you examine who might be funding these dis-information campaigns. Exxon-Mobil has spent millions of dollars ( http://www.toddalbert.com/exxonmobil_disinformation_campaign_on_global_warming_science ) -- not to convince the public that global warming is false, but simply to propagate the idea that "there is a debate on the issue" -- for they know that when there is doubt there is inaction. And inaction supports the status-quo, which suites the company rather well.
April 1, 2009 at 2:22 pm
you're kind of assuming that purchasing that luxury car does those things.
I hope readers understood that the wording in list of "those things" were my way of being a bit facetious/trying to make a lighter post. Also, I said "luxury car" only because I was tired of picking on the poor SUV and people were taking it personally. I just think it is too long to type every time: "overly sized, gas guzzling, over powered, over polluting vehicles that have features people do not need and never or almost never use". So, I'm using terms like SUV or giant luxury car as short hand for that. Obviously not every SUV fits that definition for every SUV owner. But surely most people see the connection?
Either way, my points were valid. The word "assuming" is way too strong. I'm not assuming anything. I'm repeating what I believe is generally (not everyone) scientifically accepted ideas that I've been hearing my whole life along with stories that have occurred in the news recently. I'm not making an iron clad scientific argument, but I'm not making assumptions either.
For example, remember way back when, when gas prices rose to something like $4/gallon? It was all over the news at one point that people were no longer able to afford to drive their monster trucks (I'll call it "Hummer", but that may not have been the car and in no way is meant as a slight on Hummer loving drivers). And when they tried to sell their beloved Hummers, no one would buy. The owners were stuck paying huge car payments on top of gas bills that they they really and truly couldn't afford. (Hence my semi-flippant, but real point about loosing one's house/hurting one's family financially.)
At the same time, not only was no one in the market to buy those used Hummers, but no one wanted to buy the new ones either. It got so bad that the company announced that they were going to permanently shut down the Hummer line. I'm not making any of this up. It was all over the news. (And hence my remark about putting people out of work because I chose a car that has no future.)
Over my lifetime, I've read plenty of news stories that link pollution to sicknesses in humans as well as plenty of stories that link cars to pollution. (Hence my remarks about asthma, and killing baby fish.)
I've also read plenty about the link between dependence on foreign oil and a lack of national security. So, I could have added an additional bullet to my list about my choice of car weakening the safety of my country. I was afraid people wouldn't get it.
It's debatable to what extent that happens.
... I'm just not sure that someone purchasing an SUV or luxury car means ...
It may be debatable, but if you believe there are links between cars and pollution etc., then my argument is quite compelling. We all make decisions that in a vacuum would not be a problem. Sure, if only one person ever bought an SUV, then my argument would fail. But when lots of people do it, you get big problems for both individuals and our country and the world. All of which brings us back to my original argument about Americans (in general) making bad decisions on car choices.
April 1, 2009 at 2:33 pm
You do make some points, but it's the degree we're arguing about. For every person that's no the news complaining about their $$$ car, how many didn't? If 99 didn't and 1 did, 1 would get on the news. The news isn't necessarily about truth, it's (unfortunately) about ratings at times.
Do the real math on gallons of gas. Even at $4, it's a significant % increase, but in real dollars is it? I've done it on my Prius. $4k savings over 2 years is a bunch of money, but for many professionals, it's not a make or break it number. And I drive a lot!
Pollution is an issue in places. However it's also not a problem in places. Look at what private jets do? They (arguably) would solve a lot of pollution and oil issues if we outlawed everything other than commercial or cargo flights. It's a car issue in places, but unless we want to address that differently, that's a long term solution. Anyone arguing that their 10 year old car does better than a brand new H3 or Lexus is a better choice loses on pollution.
I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but be careful of broad strokes and of stereotyping too much. I think we have a problem that we have to solve, but in a way that culturally works.
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April 1, 2009 at 2:36 pm
mmelio (4/1/2009)
But, to use an analogy from the health arena, you cannot make a patient better if your diagnosis is faulty. Its vitally important that we understand what is ailing our planet earth, before we prescribe a "better" remedy. Right?
The debate is what's wrong. For every global warming argument, there is research that shows it's not necessarily significant.
I don't believe it, not because of Exxon, but because I think the Earth has much longer cycles that we are aware of. Lots of scientists run into the same issues that plague Exxon. They want to get published, get notice, get a better job, etc. I'd like to think most are ethical and searching for the truth, but I've seen lots of academia that aren't that noble.
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April 1, 2009 at 2:39 pm
There have been many comments in this thread about the 'bad choices' Americans make about their vehicles. Well isn't that what our FREE society is all about - making free choices?
Absolutely! I love being able to make my own choices. But I'm not so full of myself that I believe I make good choices all the time. I'm not perfect and I don't know anyone who is. Just because I make a choice doesn't make it a good one. I'm not saying that we should have our choices restricted because we could make bad ones. My point was that we have made bad choices. And then I went on to explain that it has come back to bite us on the butt. (Am I allowed to write butt?)
I can make thousands of judgement calls ... .
I'm sorry you saw this discussion as being all about finger pointing and judgment calls. For me it is all about collectively acknowledging a situation so we can deal with it. When I make a bad choice, I try to take responsibility for it. The first step in taking responsibility is acknowledging the problem.
It's not just cars that pollute you know...
That's so true. But this discussion is about cars, and cars are widely accepted as contributing a significant percentage to pollution and other problems. We could open up the discussion to all those other things that cause pollution, but I'm exhausted just talking about cars.
BTW, I live 4 miles from work
Good for you! When I was looking to buy a house some years ago, I tried to buy one near where I work. But there were no houses that I could afford downtown and there is practically no bus service in my current neighborhood. I've tried to make it up in other ways, such as purchasing a hybrid car (doh!, back to cars). We all have to make do with our means and make the best choices we can with our resources.
April 1, 2009 at 2:48 pm
We all have to make do with our means and make the best choices we can with our resources.
DING. SPOT ON! That is all we really need to do to make this all work better. If we all lived within our means we wouldn't be in this mortgage crisis. We wouldn't have an entire global economy and auto industry in shambles. But we do. So now what can we do. We can live within our means.
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