July 15, 2011 at 10:29 am
SQLRNNR (7/15/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
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SQLRNNR (7/15/2011)
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J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
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bopeavy (7/15/2011)
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Why dont we break it down on an average:
1200 rent
400 groceries
300 gas car
100 ins car
200 eletric
100 gas
300 health ins
300 car payment
2900 total monthly cost
34800 total year cost
44544 with tax cost tossed in
So on an Average to live in america you need roughly $44,544 Just to live!
This assumes one income per household.
The only thing that really changes if there is more than one income per household is the taxes. Also, we would have to assume that family size is negligible in this case. Larger families = larger costs.
Assuming a household of two incomes (no children, because child costs were not included in the original example), then rent, electric, gas (heat), some taxes and some groceries can be split in half. If you are young and struggling, follow the time-proven method of economizing: get a roommate.
Interesting, I hadn't considered having roommates as qualifying for household. With roommates (in my area) then the costs listed above would seem accurate and would be a step down from normal costs that I have seen. And since there are multiple people chipping in for those grocery costs - you can guarantee that bill will be replaced with "eating out" thus maintaining that cost.
I agree with you that "With roommates (in my area) then the costs listed above would seem accurate" and still would not change much because " thus maintaining that cost. "
July 15, 2011 at 10:44 am
bopeavy (7/15/2011)
SQLRNNR (7/15/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
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SQLRNNR (7/15/2011)
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J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
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bopeavy (7/15/2011)
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Why dont we break it down on an average:
1200 rent
400 groceries
300 gas car
100 ins car
200 eletric
100 gas
300 health ins
300 car payment
2900 total monthly cost
34800 total year cost
44544 with tax cost tossed in
So on an Average to live in america you need roughly $44,544 Just to live!
This assumes one income per household.
The only thing that really changes if there is more than one income per household is the taxes. Also, we would have to assume that family size is negligible in this case. Larger families = larger costs.
Assuming a household of two incomes (no children, because child costs were not included in the original example), then rent, electric, gas (heat), some taxes and some groceries can be split in half. If you are young and struggling, follow the time-proven method of economizing: get a roommate.
Interesting, I hadn't considered having roommates as qualifying for household. With roommates (in my area) then the costs listed above would seem accurate and would be a step down from normal costs that I have seen. And since there are multiple people chipping in for those grocery costs - you can guarantee that bill will be replaced with "eating out" thus maintaining that cost.
I agree with you that "With roommates (in my area) then the costs listed above would seem accurate" and still would not change much because " thus maintaining that cost. "
I'm not sure what you are tyring to say here, but even leaving out grocery costs, the monthly savings is $750 with one roommate and $1000 with two roommates, reducing the original yearly pre-tax cost to $25800 and $22800 respectively. One can further reduce living costs by finding alternate transportation to the $700 monthly automobile charges ($8400 yearly!), but that depends on the area one has decided to live in.
July 15, 2011 at 10:56 am
SQLRNNR (7/15/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
djackson 22568 (7/15/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
cengland0 (7/15/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7/15/2011)
$50k - $75k plus nice benefits isn't enough? Sorry -- our systems can't spin gold from straw.Depends. What city and state are you in? How many years of experience are you looking for? What certifications are required for the job ? Does this person manage anyone else? How much schooling is required (None, Bachelors, Masters, etc)?
Does the candidate just need MS SQL or My SQL, Oracle, and Teradata?
http://www.earthnetworks.com/AboutUs/Jobs/tabid/109/newsid540/192/Default.aspx
Honestly, I'm not sure what they are really willing to offer. This was just a guesstimate. However, I do know that the company is only making a certain number of sales in this economic climate, and the value-add for a new DBA is only a certain amount, so the company can only offer a limited amount in salary. Those are the bare facts. If you think you are worth more, start your own company.
DBAs make a hell of a lot more than $50k, except in those cases where they are patently unqualified to hold the position. I know of one making that range, the individual is incapable of doing the job. Every DBA I know that can do the job is paid almost twice that or more.
If a good DBA can demand and get $90k in this economy, then there should not be any good DBAs complaining about being unemployed long term.
I haven't heard of any good DBAs out of work long-term so it must hold true.
Which implies that all the programmers/DBAs who cannot find jobs should consider getting more training or finding another career.
July 15, 2011 at 10:58 am
J Thaddeus Klopcic (7-15-2011)
I'm not sure what you are tyring to say here, but even leaving out grocery costs, the monthly savings is $750 with one roommate and $1000 with two roommates, reducing the original yearly pre-tax cost to $25800 and $22800 respectively. One can further reduce living costs by finding alternate transportation to the $700 monthly automobile charges ($8400 yearly!), but that depends on the area one has decided to live in.
I have to ask where do you live? Cause you are not going to get that kind of savings in the metro atlanta area.
July 15, 2011 at 11:16 am
Lately, I've gone to and had phone interviews and the interviewer only had a few years of experience and virtually no management experience and the interviews are more like Microsoft exams than they are actual job interviews. This is because these companies have fired the experienced managers and develops to hire cheaper, inexperienced people. And, when they realize that they made a mistake, they go searching for someone to clean up the mistake but have the inexperienced people they conduct the interviews.
The fact that I have over 20 years of experience and have lasted more than six months at each job should tell them I'm capable of doing the job but instead they want me to answer questions that have little to do with the actual job. And, then, oops, 3 months later the company is looking again because they found someone who could answer their questions but can't do the job once they get it.
And, the same with outsourcing... I've been on both ends with this one. After going through about 10 outsourced developers, I found one I could keep. Unfortunately, the company I work for now isn't learning the lesson that they are wasting money on the 9 developers from overseas that they have to fire because they can't do the job. And, I'm stuck doing a menial DBA job at half of what I made two years ago and am afraid to move on due to a worsening economy and a more widespread outsourcing trend.
There needs to be some legislation that limits how much a company can outsource because they aren't eliminating the minimum wage jobs anymore, they are eliminating the middle class now. What else will we do? We can't all be politicians....
In my opinion, if this trend continues, our country is in for some REAL hurt, like we've never seen before.
July 15, 2011 at 11:23 am
'I have to ask where do you live? Cause you are not going to get that kind of savings in the metro atlanta area. '
You should be able to get an increase in Salary here in Atlanta. Forgo the cost savings, earn more money. This based upon my personal experience and the calls that I have been getting. This does not even include the calls that I get for DBA work from all over the country. As far as I can tell there is currently more work than there are qualified DBA/Data Architects. If you are a BI Architect then you are the top of heap right now and can pick where you would like to work.
Somebody said it before, start your own company. It is easier than you think and your eyes will be opened to many more opportunities.
July 15, 2011 at 11:28 am
Mike
You should be able to get an increase in Salary here in Atlanta. Forgo the cost savings, earn more money. This based upon my personal experience and the calls that I have been getting. This does not even include the calls that I get for DBA work from all over the country. As far as I can tell there is currently more work than there are qualified DBA/Data Architects. If you are a BI Architect then you are the top of heap right now and can pick where you would like to work.
Somebody said it before, start your own company. It is easier than you think and your eyes will be opened to many more opportunities.
We were speaking in general about the cost of living. Not how much money i can make in my area. My phone rings 3 times a day about jobs in this area and surrounding areas this does not mean i will jumpship everytime someone offers more money.
July 15, 2011 at 11:43 am
Editorial is a bit dated. Since 2008 a large number of good IT people have been out of work for longer then a year. I was nearly one of them, but I got a temp position, after 9 months, that turned into a full time slot. Only problem is I had to take a 40% pay cut.
Perhaps Steve would want to rethink that last line.
July 15, 2011 at 11:44 am
I am not suggesting that you jump ship every time someone offers you more money. However, as a contractor working on contract lengths of 3-6 months, when my contract comes up for renewal or is ending I can charge Market Rate for my next contract. Sometimes I get more, sometimes I get less. The good news is that the people who participate in boards like this are the people who set the rates by agreeing to whatever salary or rate that they are currently working for.
I love the analogy to Steel Works and I use it often. There was a time in this country when we needed steel to build just about everything else that was manufactured here. Well now we are guys on the line rolling out the coils, with one major exception we are keepers of data. With the amount of data constantly growing, we should not have a shortage of work. Furthermore, as the world’s technology grows the countries that we outsourced to will need to use their own resources for their local companies. This will open up the market back for us data workers. I even submit that is happening already. Read into the current job descriptions and see if you agree.
July 15, 2011 at 12:13 pm
billiam904 (7/15/2011)
Lately, I've gone to and had phone interviews and the interviewer only had a few years of experience and virtually no management experience and the interviews are more like Microsoft exams than they are actual job interviews. This is because these companies have fired the experienced managers and develops to hire cheaper, inexperienced people. And, when they realize that they made a mistake, they go searching for someone to clean up the mistake but have the inexperienced people they conduct the interviews.The fact that I have over 20 years of experience and have lasted more than six months at each job should tell them I'm capable of doing the job but instead they want me to answer questions that have little to do with the actual job. And, then, oops, 3 months later the company is looking again because they found someone who could answer their questions but can't do the job once they get it.
And, the same with outsourcing... I've been on both ends with this one. After going through about 10 outsourced developers, I found one I could keep. Unfortunately, the company I work for now isn't learning the lesson that they are wasting money on the 9 developers from overseas that they have to fire because they can't do the job. And, I'm stuck doing a menial DBA job at half of what I made two years ago and am afraid to move on due to a worsening economy and a more widespread outsourcing trend.
There needs to be some legislation that limits how much a company can outsource because they aren't eliminating the minimum wage jobs anymore, they are eliminating the middle class now. What else will we do? We can't all be politicians....
In my opinion, if this trend continues, our country is in for some REAL hurt, like we've never seen before.
Exactly! Please don't get me started on the offshoring of American jobs. I have basically said the above on this forum for years until I have been blue in the face and people still don't get it. I have even got criticized by many on this very forum for it. But slowly people, like yourself are starting to wake up and realize what this is doing to our American work force. We just cannot compete with some Indian overseas making $5000-10000 a year that is willing to work 14-16 hours a day that saves all that money and sends it to their relatives also living in India. That is a lot of money in India...thats not much over here and there in lies the problem, and its the main reason companies here do it. TO SAVE MONEY!!!! at the expense of the AMERICAN worker! America wise up!!! This will not change on its own Only forced legislation will change this by penalizing companies that continue to do this in the face of staggering unemployment and terrible economic conditions in this country. Please write your congressman/congresswoman today without delay! American Jobs for Americans first!!!! 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 15, 2011 at 12:18 pm
I'd rather not do data work. I'm a technical manager who likes to keep my hands in development but no one is hiring managers and development jobs are either going to the cheap, inexperienced or to outsourcing. I took my current job with the promise that I would manage but after 14 months, I'm still not managing and make half of what I did before.
For many companies, they'd rather outsource their DBA work too but in certain industries, it is not allowed to send data overseas.
While you are confident now, in another year, you may not be so confident if your steady stream of contract jobs dry up.
Who exactly is benefitting from outsourcing? The few. Outsourcing does not create jobs. It takes away jobs. It harms the economy. Our politicians keep talking about illegal aliens take our jobs away but outsourcing does much more harm to us than illegal immigration ever did. But, politicians won't discuss outsourcing because they and their backers are getting rich from it while we go broke.
You can paint the picture rosy if you want to but in 2 years, you might be hurting too.
July 15, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Agreed. But, it will take more than just a few of us writing to our legislators. We need to do it as a combined effort, so they take notice. Recently, Apple spent $9 million is 3 months for one company in India doing tech support. They use the excuse that labor is too expensive in California. My employer is in California. I'm in Florida. They can do what my company did and set up a tech center in a region of the U.S. that is cheaper! Duh!!!! We could really use that 9 million in our economy...
July 15, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Agree with that botcot Apple!:-D
July 15, 2011 at 12:35 pm
I am not suggesting that we need government intervention to protect our jobs. I think a good old market correction is already in process. Don’t bother with Congress, the only people that you need to talk to are the recruiters who keep calling. If you take another job for high pay, you have just opened your position for one or two more people to replace you. You are currently doing the job of at least two people, right? It is simple supply and demand. Again the need for qualified DBA’s is only growing and only so much can be outsource. Many companies have returned to profitability. In order for companies to gain competitive edge, they need to leverage technology and they need us to serve them up the data. The last decade was not exactly stellar for our industry, but it was not horrible. This decade however is shaping up nicely. The pendulum swings both ways.
There is a great show on HBO now called Boardwalk Empire. The following is a quote that resonates in my head almost daily.
Jimmy - “Nucky, all I want is an opportunity.”
Nucky - “This is America, ain’t it? Who the *^%#’s stopping you?”
DBA’s of the America untie!
(Yes, it helps us be good at our jobs)
July 15, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Does anyone else see the problem with the concern of overseas outsourcing? It's not the people overseas that are the problem. We are.
We've fought long and hard to make sure we're one of the highest paid industries out there. Many of our salaries compete with engineers (who research new lines of revenue), top end salesmen (who produce said revenue), and low end company officers (who consume said revenue due to initial risk and investment).
We merely support these people. If they can find the support cheaper and it is as effective, they have more money for research tools, marketing techniques, and golf fees. If we want to fix the outsourcing problem, we need to fix ourselves. We need to provide better support, or we need to start working cheaper.
If we can't do that, then yes, our jobs are going to head to people who work for less. There's a reason the dollar is weaker, this is one of them. The housing bubble wasn't a tragedy, it NEEDED to happen. We need to push our costs back a bit, even if it hurts. Am I going to voluntarily take that paycut? Oh, heck no... not until I have to. If these forecasts are correct, however, and I would seriously need to worry in two years, then I'll look at doing it, like I did during the last wave about 5 years ago.
EDIT: I should mention I personally don't see a concern for my career, and if we remove some of the chaff along the way that's not going to upset me either. Less people claiming to be able to do the job which I then have to fight through the perceptions later.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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