February 28, 2011 at 8:18 am
Jeff Moden (2/28/2011)
Eric M Russell (2/28/2011)
Jeff Moden (2/25/2011) . . .
You're locked in a cell with a steel floor. At the center of the room is a pipe with massively thick walls securely welded to the floor all the way around and that's the only noticable thing there is in the cell. The only light is coming in through the bars. Inside the pipe and just out of reach of your fingers is a ping-pong ball and the hole in the pipe is just barely large enough to let the ping-pong ball in. You're given a piece of 1/4" thick 1" long piece of double braided rope and told that the ping-pong ball is attached to the key to get out and that if you can retrieve the key, you can let yourself out of the cell. How do you retrieve the key and how long will it take?
. . .
Are you sure you're not remembering this puzzle from one of those old Zork text adventure games?
Solution:
DROP ROPE. OPEN BOTTLE. DRINK WATER. UNZIP PANTS. FILL PIPE WITH PEE. REMOVE FLOATING BALL FROM PIPE. REMOVE KEY FROM BALL. UNLOCK DOOR.
You forgot "Shake hands with those who imprisoned you... then, wash your hands." 😛
Yeah, I'd shake their hand and wash up... just after I chop off their head with my Elvish sword!
😛
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 28, 2011 at 8:23 am
Eric M Russell (2/28/2011)
Jeff Moden (2/28/2011)
Eric M Russell (2/28/2011)
Jeff Moden (2/25/2011) . . .
You're locked in a cell with a steel floor. At the center of the room is a pipe with massively thick walls securely welded to the floor all the way around and that's the only noticable thing there is in the cell. The only light is coming in through the bars. Inside the pipe and just out of reach of your fingers is a ping-pong ball and the hole in the pipe is just barely large enough to let the ping-pong ball in. You're given a piece of 1/4" thick 1" long piece of double braided rope and told that the ping-pong ball is attached to the key to get out and that if you can retrieve the key, you can let yourself out of the cell. How do you retrieve the key and how long will it take?
. . .
Are you sure you're not remembering this puzzle from one of those old Zork text adventure games?
Solution:
DROP ROPE. OPEN BOTTLE. DRINK WATER. UNZIP PANTS. FILL PIPE WITH PEE. REMOVE FLOATING BALL FROM PIPE. REMOVE KEY FROM BALL. UNLOCK DOOR.
You forgot "Shake hands with those who imprisoned you... then, wash your hands." 😛
Yeah, I'd shake their hand and wash up... just after I chop off their head with my Elvish sword!
😛
And here I thought you were supposed to escape using the "Archimedes method", and then choke them with the otherwise useless piece of rope. After all, it's about the right size to lodge well in the throat.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 28, 2011 at 8:46 am
GSquared (2/28/2011)
amenjonathan (2/25/2011)
GSquared (2/25/2011)
amenjonathan (2/25/2011)
I've done a few interviews. A couple were for commercial analyst positions working directly for senior management. What I wanted to see is if the candidate was willing to fess up to flaws/failures and take responsibility for them. It's a very hard question to get a real answer for, because so many people lie. Many times it's hard to word or build a question for which the reason you're asking is not obvious. It's the only way to hedge the question to get more people to answer honestly.In one interview with a potential analyst I asked my standard question, "What are your three worst qualities". Again the real question is 'will you fess up to failure and take responsibility for it'. Anyway this candidate would not give me the truth. All her answers were like 'I'm a work-a-holic' or other 'bad traits that are really good'. So finally I asked her (not sure if this is ok) 'Ok tell me three things about yourself you think I don't want to hear'.
I kind of defeated the purpose of my own question. She had already answered that she wouldn't fess up. She didn't get the job.
Recruiters always tell you to prepare answers that are actually positive for that kind of question. I hate that game, since I'm just not interested.
Fully honest answers?
I'm chatty. Given the opportunity, I'll derail conversations and they'll go on indefinitely. I police it myself at work with reasonable effectiveness, but it can be a distration to myself and others if it gets out of hand.
I get bored easily by mindlessly repetitive work. Data entry and the like will take longer than it should, because I'll get distracted. One of the reasons I'm in the line of work I'm in is because I really hate repetitive work, so I tend to automate it and make the computer do it for me, wherever possible.
I have a really obscure sense of humor, and some people have trouble dealing with it. Mainly severe OCD cases, but a few merely neurotic types, will find my twists and perversions of the English language horrific. For example, I say things like, "we'll burn that bridge when we come to it". It's obviously a malapropistic mash-up of two different "bridge" cliches, and I find it amusing. I've had a couple of people spend prolonged periods of time trying to correct me on it, which amused me and put them in a state of semi-anguish.
You would probably accept those as honest points of negative self-assessment, which they are. BUT, I guarantee, they aren't "the worst three things about me".
...
Best bet in answering that kind of question is aim for just bad enough to be believed and to seem like a real answer, but not bad enough to matter. You have to know that's what most people are going to do, if they answer honestly at all. Which renders the question pointless, because the answers are just plays to keep in the game.
...
Those answers would be great. That's exactly what kind of answer I would be looking for. In the analytical group we were in, hiding errors was the easiest way for us to get in trouble, so we needed people who would bring issues to light even if the issues were created by themselves.
I also think it's fine for interviewees to ask any of the same questions. I mean they have to be happy too. The only issue would be not knowing what you could tell the person interviewing. I've never been in or given an interview where I had HR and legal with me to ask questions of.
Even though I openly stated that those are far from "the worst things about me" (which makes them a lie, effectively), and that they are cynically aimed at "playing" the interviewer, you still think, "Those answers would be great". Are you sure about that?
Here are real responses I've given to the "worst thing about you" question in real interviews:
"I hate that question. You're expected to try to lie about something that's fake-positive, like 'I have no life, so I tend to overwork', and I really don't feal like playing that game. What's your next question?"
and
"You're not my priest, so I'm going to decline to answer."
Both of those interviews resulted in job offers, so I must have done something right. All of them are delivered in a humorous tone of voice and with friendly body+facial language. Nothing hostile about them. But they don't answer the question.
The most honest answer possible to this kind of question? "I'm physically mortal, fragile, and ephemeral. I'll die someday. Before that happens, I will, at best, grow old and feeble." Trust me, it doesn't get worse than that, and it's completely true and brutally honest.
Wow if you gave me either of those here's what you're saying: "I'm going to be a pain in your back side. If you hire me, it's your own fault."
"I'm going to openly mock your question in an interview. Please give me the job." Not sure that's a good approach. Being honest and leaving smart *** comments at the door is probably best. Unless that's the real you every day, and then the question did it's job, and we look at the next candidate.
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My SQL Server Blog
February 28, 2011 at 9:11 am
amenjonathan (2/28/2011)
Wow if you gave me either of those here's what you're saying: "I'm going to be a pain in your back side. If you hire me, it's your own fault.""I'm going to openly mock your question in an interview. Please give me the job." Not sure that's a good approach. Being honest and leaving smart *** comments at the door is probably best. Unless that's the real you every day, and then the question did it's job, and we look at the next candidate.
I think it says that anyone else that answers this question is lying - and I'm not.
I think I'd spin the "I'm nosy" into something a bit more positive... maybe "I'm very inquisitive". It doesn't seem to have quite the negative connotations that being nosy does.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
February 28, 2011 at 9:59 am
There have been times in the past when I've gone to an interview because the job description looked good or a recruiter talked it up as a good opportunity, and then shortly into the interview I decided that I didn't want the job. If someone asks me a question that rings an alarm bell, then I make no special effort to tell them what I think they want to hear. If they can't refrain from being dim or annoying during the interview, then I can guess how extra dim or annoying they'll be once I'm on their payroll. The way I see it, with the possible exception of short term gigs, I have nothing to gain by pretending to agree with or like someone, so I don't even bother.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 28, 2011 at 10:01 am
amenjonathan (2/28/2011)
GSquared (2/28/2011)
amenjonathan (2/25/2011)
GSquared (2/25/2011)
amenjonathan (2/25/2011)
I've done a few interviews. A couple were for commercial analyst positions working directly for senior management. What I wanted to see is if the candidate was willing to fess up to flaws/failures and take responsibility for them. It's a very hard question to get a real answer for, because so many people lie. Many times it's hard to word or build a question for which the reason you're asking is not obvious. It's the only way to hedge the question to get more people to answer honestly.In one interview with a potential analyst I asked my standard question, "What are your three worst qualities". Again the real question is 'will you fess up to failure and take responsibility for it'. Anyway this candidate would not give me the truth. All her answers were like 'I'm a work-a-holic' or other 'bad traits that are really good'. So finally I asked her (not sure if this is ok) 'Ok tell me three things about yourself you think I don't want to hear'.
I kind of defeated the purpose of my own question. She had already answered that she wouldn't fess up. She didn't get the job.
Recruiters always tell you to prepare answers that are actually positive for that kind of question. I hate that game, since I'm just not interested.
Fully honest answers?
I'm chatty. Given the opportunity, I'll derail conversations and they'll go on indefinitely. I police it myself at work with reasonable effectiveness, but it can be a distration to myself and others if it gets out of hand.
I get bored easily by mindlessly repetitive work. Data entry and the like will take longer than it should, because I'll get distracted. One of the reasons I'm in the line of work I'm in is because I really hate repetitive work, so I tend to automate it and make the computer do it for me, wherever possible.
I have a really obscure sense of humor, and some people have trouble dealing with it. Mainly severe OCD cases, but a few merely neurotic types, will find my twists and perversions of the English language horrific. For example, I say things like, "we'll burn that bridge when we come to it". It's obviously a malapropistic mash-up of two different "bridge" cliches, and I find it amusing. I've had a couple of people spend prolonged periods of time trying to correct me on it, which amused me and put them in a state of semi-anguish.
You would probably accept those as honest points of negative self-assessment, which they are. BUT, I guarantee, they aren't "the worst three things about me".
...
Best bet in answering that kind of question is aim for just bad enough to be believed and to seem like a real answer, but not bad enough to matter. You have to know that's what most people are going to do, if they answer honestly at all. Which renders the question pointless, because the answers are just plays to keep in the game.
...
Those answers would be great. That's exactly what kind of answer I would be looking for. In the analytical group we were in, hiding errors was the easiest way for us to get in trouble, so we needed people who would bring issues to light even if the issues were created by themselves.
I also think it's fine for interviewees to ask any of the same questions. I mean they have to be happy too. The only issue would be not knowing what you could tell the person interviewing. I've never been in or given an interview where I had HR and legal with me to ask questions of.
Even though I openly stated that those are far from "the worst things about me" (which makes them a lie, effectively), and that they are cynically aimed at "playing" the interviewer, you still think, "Those answers would be great". Are you sure about that?
Here are real responses I've given to the "worst thing about you" question in real interviews:
"I hate that question. You're expected to try to lie about something that's fake-positive, like 'I have no life, so I tend to overwork', and I really don't feal like playing that game. What's your next question?"
and
"You're not my priest, so I'm going to decline to answer."
Both of those interviews resulted in job offers, so I must have done something right. All of them are delivered in a humorous tone of voice and with friendly body+facial language. Nothing hostile about them. But they don't answer the question.
The most honest answer possible to this kind of question? "I'm physically mortal, fragile, and ephemeral. I'll die someday. Before that happens, I will, at best, grow old and feeble." Trust me, it doesn't get worse than that, and it's completely true and brutally honest.
Wow if you gave me either of those here's what you're saying: "I'm going to be a pain in your back side. If you hire me, it's your own fault."
"I'm going to openly mock your question in an interview. Please give me the job." Not sure that's a good approach. Being honest and leaving smart *** comments at the door is probably best. Unless that's the real you every day, and then the question did it's job, and we look at the next candidate.
As I already mentioned, my cynicism about what I consider poor interview technique is capable of generating hostility from people who feel (perhaps correctly) that I'm attacking something they consider important.
What would your response be if I answered, "I'm smarter than you, based on IQ and aptitude tests, and I won't take things seriously that you consider important, because I find them trivial issues from my perspective of greater intelligence and information." Now THAT would be complete lack of diplomacy. More honestly, it would be sort of anti-diplomacy, actively worded to antagonize the questioner.
How about, "I frequently see easier/better solutions to issues than others have come up with, because of my education and intellectual inclinations. Ocassionally, this can be a disadvantage in that I may see something as being a non-issue or trivial, and thus fail to give it the importance and urgency that someone else may expect."
Both say exactly the same thing. Both list the exact same "worst thing about me". One is guaranteed to antagonize the interviewer. The other will "play the game" and, per your earliest post on the subject, possibly disqualify the interviewee by being "a positive spun as a negative". But if a person really views himself that way, not saying it would be dishonest per any reasonable definition of ethics and honesty, and that's the only option you're giving here. Either lie by omission or lose the opportunity, or lie by commission and potentially get the job.
Hence, the "game" on this isn't that you're looking for honest answers. You're looking for someone who can play the game you want them to play, which is come up with something "just bad enough", without upsetting you.
That's my point. It's not an honest game. It's not even vaguely about honesty. It's about politics and game play. That's why I dislike the question.
I can be diplomatic, but I prefer honesty over politics.
In person, I've only ever met two people I couldn't get along with, out of literally thousands of co-workers, bosses, friends, et al, from dozens of cultures all over this world. And one of those two was a convicted child molester, so I don't see a personality clash there as a flaw in me. Therefore, I'm convinced that I can get along with a team of people, and will work well with them. I've been able to convey that conviction in almost every interview I've ever had.
I'm highly technically competent in my field. I also have experience and training in management (both team leader/supervisory management and upper-middle management for a multinational corporation). I get the job done, do it well, and bring very high value to every employer I've ever had. I also have conveyed this in every interview I've ever had.
But I dislike a few of the "traditional" interview questions, this one included, because I don't see them as honest or useful. The fact that I don't automatically agree with managers on this kind of thing does ocassionally get me labeled as "arrogant". Not often, but it does occur.
I appologize that my personal view on the thing steps on your toes. They're your toes, and obviously my feet are incompatible with them. That's at least partially my fault.
So, I think we can conclude that I should never interview with you. From your perspective, that's my problem. From my perspective, it's yours. That works for me.
Can you live with me having a strongly different opinion than you on this?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 28, 2011 at 10:08 am
GSquared (2/28/2011)
... a lot of text ...
Waw, you're quite an argumentative guy. And I mean that as a compliment.
Honesty over politics. I'd like to work more with people like you.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
February 28, 2011 at 10:17 am
Koen Verbeeck (2/28/2011)
GSquared (2/28/2011)
... a lot of text ...Waw, you're quite an argumentative guy. And I mean that as a compliment.
Honesty over politics. I'd like to work more with people like you.
Thank you.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 28, 2011 at 10:49 am
I would say you're an intelligent guy who has no sense of humility. Bad for business. You're going to ostrisize yourself with the entire team; therefore, if I hire you I'll just end up regretting it. Doesn't matter how bright you are, you have to be able to work with others and take orders from above, even if you don't agree.
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My SQL Server Blog
February 28, 2011 at 11:08 am
amenjonathan (2/28/2011)
I would say you're an intelligent guy who has no sense of humility. Bad for business. You're going to ostrisize yourself with the entire team; therefore, if I hire you I'll just end up regretting it. Doesn't matter how bright you are, you have to be able to work with others and take orders from above, even if you don't agree.
That doesn't make up for the fact that it is a darn stupid question where you can only do two things:
* lie to present yourself better and to please the interviewer
* be honest and possibly put yourself in a corner
(* explain that it is a stupid question and be labeled as arrogant :-))
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
February 28, 2011 at 11:16 am
amenjonathan (2/28/2011)
I would say you're an intelligent guy who has no sense of humility. Bad for business. You're going to ostrisize yourself with the entire team; therefore, if I hire you I'll just end up regretting it. Doesn't matter how bright you are, you have to be able to work with others and take orders from above, even if you don't agree.
As I already said, I've only ever met two people I couldn't get along with. I integrate and interact well with both co-workers and bosses. Keep in mind, what you're seeing here is just words, and that's about 2% of communication. You really can't judge people based purely on their writings alone. I recommend withholding judgement of me till you've met me.
You're wrong, however, about the humility thing. I have but one flaw, without which I would would surpass all possible definitions of perfection in this universe. The flaw, unfortunately, is that I am far too humble and modest.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 28, 2011 at 11:21 am
Interviewing for a job is a lot like going out on a first date. The goal shouldn't be to say all the right things that land you the job, the goal should be to find the right job that will be rewarding years to come. For a potential employer to ask a question about your politics is no different from a date asking how much money you earn. You can learn a lot about a person or an employer by the questions they ask, and little things like that are indicators of what could be a much larger problem.
Of course if what you're looking for is a short and easy gig, then above advice doesn't apply to either employers and dates. However, I think most of us here are beyond that stage in our lives.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 28, 2011 at 11:29 am
There is a large bit of irony in someone saying my only flaw is humility.
The whole point of the question is to see if the individual:
1. Can admit shortcomings
2. Does not make excuses for them (what you see is what you get)
3. Doesn't try to weasle their way out of the question
4. (I hadn't thought of this until this thread) Can be humble enough to answer the question correctly (translated: are smart enough to see how emotional responses to the question do no good)
5. Can work in an environment without playing the 'blame game' (someone who can admit when they're wrong and accept it without getting upset about it)
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My SQL Server Blog
February 28, 2011 at 12:20 pm
amenjonathan (2/28/2011)
There is a large bit of irony in someone saying my only flaw is humility.
Exactly.
The whole point of the question is to see if the individual:
1. Can admit shortcomings
2. Does not make excuses for them (what you see is what you get)
3. Doesn't try to weasle their way out of the question
4. (I hadn't thought of this until this thread) Can be humble enough to answer the question correctly (translated: are smart enough to see how emotional responses to the question do no good)
5. Can work in an environment without playing the 'blame game' (someone who can admit when they're wrong and accept it without getting upset about it)
In that case, I'd reword the question to look for those exact things. The traditional wordings:
"What is your biggest flaw" or "What are your three biggest flaws"
Aren't well worded for that purpose.
How about, "What's the biggest mistake you've ever made on the job, and what did you do to handle it?" Or, "If you could change any one thing about yourself, job/career/skill-wise, right this minute, but only one thing, what would it be?"
Advantages:
They aim directly at what you're really looking for
They don't create a "prisoner's dilema" situation in competing against other job candidates
They aim at a positive view of the thing, lowering the tendency to defend (lie/hedge/political spin/weasel)
They don't invite a "you go first" defense that will be detrimental to the interview process (makes it competitive/hostile instead of cooperative/friendly)
The first point (aiming directly), is achieved by the first one by asking directly about job-related issues. What do you do if the answer to "worst three things" is all personal? "I'm aparently a bit of a boring date. I'm not a particularly good cook. And I'm a black-thumb gardener." That doesn't help much in judging the candidate's fitness for work, and doesn't even really tell you much about their ability to admit shortcomings, since those are all pretty mild and boring. Technically, it answers the question, but it certainly doesn't give you what you're looking for.
The "worst mistake" version will help catching out people who are looking to spin the situation, because they will usually hestitate for a bit while they try to think of something "acceptable". (Lag in answer means they, at the very least, haven't given much thought to learning from their errors.)
The "one change" version avoids this altogether, while still giving the person a chance to "fess up" to a shortcoming. If the answer is a glib, "I'd change to having a job instead of being unemployed", that tells you a lot about the person. If it's, "I really need to improve my skills in query tuning", that again tells you everything you need to know per your list, and a lot more. If it's, "I'd change my employer because my current boss is an arrogant jerk named GSquared who...", that again tells you what you need to know.
Also, "worst three" can open you up to potential legal issues. What happens if one of the items on the list is religious or otherwise legally sensitive? "I'm a lapsed Catholic and I think I'm going to burn for eternity." Definitely a legitimate "worst thing about me" if it's true for that person. If you then reject that candidate because you also find that they have no skills whatsoever that you need, you then are in a position of potentially being at the wrong end of a religious discrimination lawsuit, which will be inconvenient at best. Your question leaves that possibility open. (Run this by your company's legal department, see if they disagree with me or if they instruct you to change the question.)
My problem with the question isn't because I don't think you should probe for weaknesses in the candidate. And the ability to not face one's own failings is a definite weakness (says the guy who was joking about exceeding perfection). I completely agree with the goal you're aiming at. I just think the method of getting there is seriously flawed.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 28, 2011 at 12:26 pm
But then you're missing the point of the question. It's indirect. It's a personality question. The specifics of their answer are pointless. I don't care specifically what they say.
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