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Looking Back at 2016

  • January 23, 2017 at 4:41 am

    #1924359

    Surely, the point is that the rules were made public in advance. In fact I heard a debate where this was one of the discussion points. The general consensus was that the rule was reasonable but there were some preferrable alternatives. I guess that it was inevitable that whatever side lost would change their opinion on this when the vote didn't go their way.

    And Tom, I think that you are missing my point. You have fallen foul of generalising anyone who voted leave as a racist. On calling you out on this you appeard to suggest that I was gullible, stupid or a racist when you said I should "Try thinking hard about that, instead of listening to English extreme right-wing politicians". A counterpoint you have chosen to ignore. I am saying that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable. It is bullying and an attempt to coerce people to a point of view through an attempt to shame instead of intellectual debate. Which is only highlighted even more by the fact that I am calling anyone out on this even though I voted remain.

    Most people I know are becoming or have become politically disengaged due to the vitriolic message to force agendas. Even when their agree with the position.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • January 24, 2017 at 12:34 pm

    #1924712

    Gary Varga - Monday, January 23, 2017 4:41 AM

    Surely, the point is that the rules were made public in advance. In fact I heard a debate where this was one of the discussion points. The general consensus was that the rule was reasonable but there were some preferrable alternatives. I guess that it was inevitable that whatever side lost would change their opinion on this when the vote didn't go their way.

    And Tom, I think that you are missing my point. You have fallen foul of generalising anyone who voted leave as a racist. On calling you out on this you appeard to suggest that I was gullible, stupid or a racist when you said I should "Try thinking hard about that, instead of listening to English extreme right-wing politicians". A counterpoint you have chosen to ignore. I am saying that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable. It is bullying and an attempt to coerce people to a point of view through an attempt to shame instead of intellectual debate. Which is only highlighted even more by the fact that I am calling anyone out on this even though I voted remain.

    Most people I know are becoming or have become politically disengaged due to the vitriolic message to force agendas. Even when their agree with the position.

    The only rule that was made public in advance was that the referendum was purely advisory, the result would not be binding.  If 37% of voters was going to be treated as enough to make the result binding that should have been clearly stated, instead of the "it's only advisory" story. 

    And I think you are misinterpreting what I say.   I don't believe you for a moment understand the reaction of many scottish people to the disgraceful attitude of English MPs who used the EU as a weapon to force Scotland to remain in the UK Union and are now telling us that taking Scotland forcibly out of the EU after that disgraceful stunt generates no need to look again at the Union of the British nations.   Nor do I think you have taken account at all of the increase of hate crime reported since the referendum - or of the distinctly racist slant of

      And I think you are misinterpreting what I say.   I don't believe you for a moment understand the reaction of many scottish people to the disgraceful attitude of English MPs who used the EU as a weapon to force Scotland to remain in the UK Union and are now telling us that taking Scotland forcibly out of the EU after that disgraceful stunt generates no need to look again at the Union of the British nations.   Nor do I think you have taken account at all of the increase of hate crime reported since the referendum - or of the distinctly racist slant of some of the leave support that was given much publicity but not much criticism, a phenomenon that appears to have led some racists to think that they now have general support. 

    of the leave support that was given much publicity but not much criticism, a phenomenon that appears to have led some racists to think that they now have general support. 

    And let's be clear: I'm saying there was a lot of racism used by some leave campaigners  to try to encourage  a leave vote.  I'm not saying that everyone who voted leave, everyone who campaigned in favour of leave, was a racist and I don't believe that any reasonable person would intepret what I've said as saying that.  And I'm certainly not suggesting that you are racist - that particular claim you make is false.  Perhaps you made it intending  to intimidate me into not responding to the post containing it - well, if so it hasn't worked, because here I am responding, but unlike you I'm not going to claim that it is so. And I really didn't think that you had thought seriously about how Scots react to the fact that less that 40% of all voters did allow English MPs to overrule a majority vote that had nothing to do with England because it's not enough, but it is enough when they want to drag Scotland out of the EU because  the people (well 37% of them, which is of course far more than 40%, isn't it?) have spoken and we must obey - and I'm at at loss as to why you think suggesting that you should think seriously about that is in any way either accusing you of anything (apart from not having thought about it, which was a reasonable assumption because it's probable that until I pointed it out you weren't actually aware of it) or attempting to bully you.

    Tom

  • January 24, 2017 at 2:10 pm

    #1924741

    Ed Wagner - Friday, January 20, 2017 7:42 PM

    I don't live in Europe, but a 52% vote is a majority no matter where you live.
    Another altruism is that politicians lie.  I don't care if we're talking about Brexit or a local election in a city in South Dakota.  It's a fact of life.

    The media, assumptive language, and baseless lies is a conversation that causes my blood to boil...and this is where I walk away.

    I have to agree.  A while back my dad and I were talking and he told me that my Grand Father had run for city council years ago and won.  He resigned in less than a month because he couldn't lie to the citizens of the city like everyone else on the city council did.

  • January 25, 2017 at 1:48 am

    #1924798

    Tom, I am not trying to shut you up but I do think that the way you are trying to discuss this is not as civil as you may think. This is unlikely to be intentional. I agree with a lot you are saying but I don't agree with how you are saying it. Please consider the following:

    TomThomson - Monday, January 16, 2017 5:55 PMTomThomson - Monday, January 16, 2017 5:55 PM

    ...Brits voted the way they did for primarily racist reasons

    In my opinion a horrible generalisation and my experience is that I have yet to meet or hear of one person, except through the media, who voted for this reason.

    TomThomson - Thursday, January 19, 2017 9:39 AM

    Try thinking hard about that, instead of listening to English extreme right-wing politicians...

    Another dreadful assumption. Totally unfair. Totally unfounded . Totally untrue.

    You have so many good points but, as I said earlier, all lost due to the vitriolic stance. Under different circumstances I would have PM'd you but you are publicly calling a lot of people racists. Or at least phrasing it in such a way as to imply as much. Perhaps you could back up either of the above things you said with evidence.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

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