April 27, 2011 at 9:19 am
David Benoit (4/27/2011)
crainlee2 (4/27/2011)
It simply takes a corporate commitment and/or necessity to make it work.Yes, that is the key.
J Thaddeus Klopcic (4/27/2011)
Funny, I worked for UPS, and even though we remotely managed servers and collaborated daily with tech folks we never met face to face, my managers still insisted on my physical presence in the office every day. Strangely, this was in addition to the fact that I was required to maintain (at my expense) the ability to access the UPS global network from home at any time of day or night. But, they had the notion that if they couldn't see me, then I must not be working.Sadly that is the mindset of many. That is the very first thing that has to be overcome. I do see that changing though as the mindset of management is quickly coming to the place where remote workers are not only a possibility but a necessity. Consider how limited you make your corporation by limiting the talent pool to the area where your office is. You could be recruiting from anywhere, pulling the best talent, and potentially saving the company money in the process and the only reason you don't is because you can't have "face to face" communication with your employee's. That mindset will have to go very quickly. 🙂
That mindset is unlikely to go anywhere. Many managers know that if they're not keeping an eye on the workers, they have nothing to offer the company.
And there's a mindset of the higher-ups that your worth as a manager is dierctly tied to the number of people you have under you. If the higher-ups don't see those people when they walk through your department, they must not exist. I've been asked as a contractor to show up to company events simply because then my manager will be able to show off his "headcount" better.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 27, 2011 at 9:24 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/27/2011)
That mindset is unlikely to go anywhere. Many managers know that if they're not keeping an eye on the workers, they have nothing to offer the company.
And there's a mindset of the higher-ups that your worth as a manager is dierctly tied to the number of people you have under you. If the higher-ups don't see those people when they walk through your department, they must not exist. I've been asked as a contractor to show up to company events simply because then my manager will be able to show off his "headcount" better.
And that, quite simply, scares me. All I can say is "Wow".
David
@SQLTentmaker“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose” - Jim Elliot
April 27, 2011 at 9:34 am
David Benoit (4/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/27/2011)
That mindset is unlikely to go anywhere. Many managers know that if they're not keeping an eye on the workers, they have nothing to offer the company.
And there's a mindset of the higher-ups that your worth as a manager is dierctly tied to the number of people you have under you. If the higher-ups don't see those people when they walk through your department, they must not exist. I've been asked as a contractor to show up to company events simply because then my manager will be able to show off his "headcount" better.
And that, quite simply, scares me. All I can say is "Wow".
Been there, fired that moronic client (company owner). He retired the next year... 1-3 decades too late for my own taste.
April 27, 2011 at 10:14 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/27/2011)
That mindset is unlikely to go anywhere. Many managers know that if they're not keeping an eye on the workers, they have nothing to offer the company.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that challenging and debating with managers helps them to see the irrationality of using people remotely for on call/off hours work but not regular hours. I think many managers don't keep eyes on workers. They walk past, but they often don't check up in person. Many times managers use phone/email anyway and "waking" them up to the realities (or tracking it) can help.
I don't think managers see their value to the company as physically seeing people. If they do, they don't understand management. There are also lots of managers located in physically different locations (floors/buildings) than workers.
Many managers just don't understand what they should be doing, so they tend to bother workers regularly with meetings and status requests, not desk checks.
And there's a mindset of the higher-ups that your worth as a manager is dierctly tied to the number of people you have under you. If the higher-ups don't see those people when they walk through your department, they must not exist.
I think that's rare. I have many friends in large companies, and in most I've worked in and the directors/VPs almost never walk through an area. They might question a manager if they don't see people, but the manager's worth or value is based on the people in the org chart, not the people in chairs. Those spot checks are rare events.
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April 27, 2011 at 10:30 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/27/2011)
Many managers just don't understand what they should be doing, so they tend to bother workers regularly with meetings and status requests, not desk checks.
I know one that likes to walk into the developers area "Why aren't you working?", "This had better be work" and similar statements. Any wonder she doesn't let me work away from the office?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 27, 2011 at 10:32 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/27/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/27/2011)
That mindset is unlikely to go anywhere. Many managers know that if they're not keeping an eye on the workers, they have nothing to offer the company.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that challenging and debating with managers helps them to see the irrationality of using people remotely for on call/off hours work but not regular hours. I think many managers don't keep eyes on workers. They walk past, but they often don't check up in person. Many times managers use phone/email anyway and "waking" them up to the realities (or tracking it) can help.
I don't think managers see their value to the company as physically seeing people. If they do, they don't understand management. There are also lots of managers located in physically different locations (floors/buildings) than workers.
Many managers just don't understand what they should be doing, so they tend to bother workers regularly with meetings and status requests, not desk checks.
And there's a mindset of the higher-ups that your worth as a manager is dierctly tied to the number of people you have under you. If the higher-ups don't see those people when they walk through your department, they must not exist.
I think that's rare. I have many friends in large companies, and in most I've worked in and the directors/VPs almost never walk through an area. They might question a manager if they don't see people, but the manager's worth or value is based on the people in the org chart, not the people in chairs. Those spot checks are rare events.
I've worked for companies that installed low cubicle walls or went with open floor plans specifically so they could see who was at their desk and when. I've had managers freak out because they knew higher-ups would be at a meeting in the building and their people were on vacation/working from home/at another location that day and the cubes would be mostly empty. I've had managers walk through the cube area just after 9 and just before 5 to make sure everyone was there. I've had managers require that consultants go to staff-only meetings so they could requisition the larger meeting room, which looks better on their schedules.
Sure, these are all just my anecdotes, but they're what inform my perception of the state of management today. I've also had some great managers who understood what they're doing and who contribute to the company instead of being a hall monitor, but those are fewer and further between than I'd have thought 20 years ago.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 27, 2011 at 10:32 am
GilaMonster (4/27/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/27/2011)
Many managers just don't understand what they should be doing, so they tend to bother workers regularly with meetings and status requests, not desk checks.I know one that likes to walk into the developers area "Why aren't you working?", "This had better be work" and similar statements. Any wonder she doesn't let me work away from the office?
I would be working away from that office. 😀
David
@SQLTentmaker“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose” - Jim Elliot
April 27, 2011 at 10:37 am
I for one would love to get in a position where I could work from home. There is absolutley nothing I do now that I could not do from home. The problem is all in the ideology. most managers have not real idea why they are against the idea they just know being able to see you face to face gives them a sense of connection to your work. This thinking is not likely to change any time soon either. It is largely do to the old saying that good news travels fast but bad news travels faster. Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.
Dan
If only I could snap my figures and have all the correct indexes apear and the buffer clean and.... Start day dream here.
April 27, 2011 at 10:41 am
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.
You mean that staff at the office work more than a couple hours a day?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 27, 2011 at 10:43 am
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
I for one would love to get in a position where I could work from home. There is absolutley nothing I do now that I could not do from home. The problem is all in the ideology. most managers have not real idea why they are against the idea they just know being able to see you face to face gives them a sense of connection to your work. This thinking is not likely to change any time soon either. It is largely do to the old saying that good news travels fast but bad news travels faster. Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.
Bakc in the 90s I worked for a company that had a large number of COBOL contractors. They were customizing a large product for a large customer. My job was to edit the documentation, assist with the meetings with the client, helping to figure out what they needed and wanted, etc... The consultants were supposed to modify the various manuals with the required changes and only when that was all done would any coding start.
One of the consultants had been on the project for about a year and finally turned his manual in around 2 months late. He'd done exactly nothing to modify it. He'd been physically present every day for all that time, but hadn't done any work. Just being present doesn't mean being productive and managers need to realize that as well.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 27, 2011 at 10:46 am
GilaMonster (4/27/2011)
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.You mean that staff at the office work more than a couple hours a day?
I actually work less here... less motivated and annoyed by the spot-checks.
April 27, 2011 at 10:47 am
GilaMonster (4/27/2011)
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.You mean that staff at the office work more than a couple hours a day?
Not at all but that is the perception and after all perception is reality. I can actually see the trend start to shift however with the pampered generation making it's way into the market. I attended a management seminar not long ago and it astounds me the concepts that are now working there way in. An example is the concept that managers should no loger expect work to get done just becuase we have given an assignment. As it was explained to the group todays generation just doesn't think the same way and we have to encourage them and explain why the need to do something we asked. They even went as far as to say that if they did nto complete an asignment we should find something they would prefer to work on.
Dan
If only I could snap my figures and have all the correct indexes apear and the buffer clean and.... Start day dream here.
April 27, 2011 at 10:56 am
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/27/2011)
GilaMonster (4/27/2011)
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.You mean that staff at the office work more than a couple hours a day?
I actually work less here... less motivated and annoyed by the spot-checks.
Yup. I'm seeing the same thing at the company with the aforementioned manager. If any of the BAs do an hours work a day, it's a lot. The developers are so unmotivated that virtually nothing is getting done.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 27, 2011 at 10:57 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/27/2011)
Sure, these are all just my anecdotes, but they're what inform my perception of the state of management today. I've also had some great managers who understood what they're doing and who contribute to the company instead of being a hall monitor, but those are fewer and further between than I'd have thought 20 years ago.
They are valid anecdotes, and I've dealt with those managers as well. However I've dealt with many others, and ask friends about their experiences. That attitude, while it still exists, is dwindling and I'd like to think it's the exception.
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April 27, 2011 at 10:57 am
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
GilaMonster (4/27/2011)
Dan.Humphries (4/27/2011)
Most managers hear of someone who did not actualy do much work from hom enad assumed that all work from home employees must not work more than a couple of hours a day.You mean that staff at the office work more than a couple hours a day?
Not at all but that is the perception and after all perception is reality. I can actually see the trend start to shift however with the pampered generation making it's way into the market. I attended a management seminar not long ago and it astounds me the concepts that are now working there way in. An example is the concept that managers should no loger expect work to get done just becuase we have given an assignment. As it was explained to the group todays generation just doesn't think the same way and we have to encourage them and explain why the need to do something we asked. They even went as far as to say that if they did nto complete an asignment we should find something they would prefer to work on.
Dr. Spock mentality for raising children meets corporate world. Sounds like great stuff. Maybe they can create titles for all these people that don't get the work done. The highest level would be something like "money leach" or something similar.
Oh wait, maybe this is a government institution that you are referring to. 😛
David
@SQLTentmaker“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose” - Jim Elliot
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