May 14, 2012 at 6:02 am
Thank you, Steve. This was one of your better editorials and highlights an attitude than is too prevalent in our industry. A young programmer might certainly call me a 'grayhair' and I'm still programming for a living. I believe that I'm much better at it how than I was 20 years ago, and I'm still learning new things about how to do it cheaper, faster, but most of all, better. While I am a team player, I enjoy working alone, often in unexplored territory and depending on my own skillset and determination to pull through.
Many of us may be a loners at heart, but we've had to learn at least one new technology or language every year, so don't tell me we can't adapt. I've never met a manager who constantly worked to upgrade his or her management craft from books, or pushed their own skills development as hard as programmers and DBAs have to push theirs just to stay current.
It's funny that the management types passing these sorts of silly judgments on workers' value being a function of youth are generally older workers themselves. If it's true that older workers are really not up to par, why are so many of them in management? Are they doing good work there, or just riding on the coattails of their real producers, whether young or old?
Sigerson
"No pressure, no diamonds." - Thomas Carlyle
May 14, 2012 at 7:23 am
Once managers learn that working more hours doesn't equal better
ANYTHING!
The fact is that productivity and hours worked are different measures, and studies have shown that as hours worked increases, productivity goes down.
On the entire article, all I can say is "What he said!".
Dave
Dave
May 14, 2012 at 7:34 am
Jeff Moden (5/12/2012)
Good article, Steve. I believe that you've hit the nail on the head. So many managers think that Hours worked = Hours wisely spent = Good lines of code and it's just not true. I've seen a lot of shops where about half of the work is spent on reworking crap code that was pushed to production to meet a schedule. More experienced managers would have seen the falicy in all of that.
I agree. In fact what is worse is that management is clueless to the point of not even comprehending what you just stated. Understanding complex systems and the big picture of how everything interacts such that one is truly capable of thinking out side of the box comes from tons of experience and knowledge across a broad skill set. Deep understanding and the resulting insights just don't occur to people with limited experience... period.
Drag and drop tools and technologies make it deceptively easy to create really cool stuff that impresses the hell out of people that don't know any better. All too often these sorts of non-designs crash and burn when put into production where real transactional volume and concurrency is happening.
Ignorance is bliss.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
May 14, 2012 at 7:34 am
I'll take experience over youth any day of the week.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 14, 2012 at 7:55 am
There are so many different facets to this issue. Part of the issue is that there seldom is a true "technical ladder" for advancement aside from the managerial ladder. And the people who are on the managerial ladder can't understand why someone would "be content" to stay in the same position for years. If you are not trying to advance on the managerial ladder (and get paid more money), there must be something wrong with you.
Way back in 1999, the first-level supervisor position for the group I was in was "deleted" from the organizational chart during a merger with a firm in another city. After a few months, it was apparent that having a long-distance supervisor didn't make sense. I stepped up to the plate to do that role - no change in title, no pay increase! The following year, the company began an initiative to convert our mainframe, flatfile databases to a relational database. I was pumped! I had a lot of ideas and wanted to be on that development team. So I requested a transfer into that group, and stepped down from my "supervisor" role. I was floored by the disdain that people on the managerial ladder had for me after I stepped down - sort of, "See, we knew you didn't have the chops to be a manager." (Not only that, but the development team spent all their time in meetings, never agreeing on the direction to go, and no development actually took place. I ended up leaving the company just a few months later, to start fresh and learn again.)
Oh, I meant to close with: I would advocate a true technical ladder, with something like "Head guru" at the top. The people on this track could be involved in multiple projects, lending their years of experience to planning and oversight. The company could even encourage advanced degrees for people on this track.
May 14, 2012 at 8:03 am
Greetings,
It seems most here are of one mind - Let us do our job, be great at it, and respect us for it. Some business think if you are great at your job, then move you up the ladder to let you lead others to greatness. As many have already pointed out here, that does not usually work. A good software engineer (developer) knows the logic of code. People ARE NOT LOGICAL!!!! Hence why a great developer may not make a good manager. 😛
That being said, I prefer to be in a software engineer position so I can get better at my job and reduce some stress. I still get the long hours but at least I can partially understand my quarry (the bit biter pc). I have found that getting better in this area is not without its drawbacks too. I am now known for speaking and writing in greek or chinese and for making the impossible possible. This means nobody talks to me much and management is always looking for more impossible things for me to do.
Have a good day.
Terry Steadman
May 14, 2012 at 8:06 am
It isn't much of a secret that the older you get the more likely nobody wants you when it comes to IT. I'm sure anyone that post here can come up with an example of "the old guy" at their company and even we have one but the rest of us are under 45 and not that this should be considered young. And such an example of the older person doesn't wipe out the facts.
Counting the number of hours someone works doesn't seem to be a good measure of productivity. Sure I can see that a person owes a company say, 40 hours minimum but does the guy/gal who works 60 hours really add more than the guy/gal who works 40 or, is the 60 our person hiding from a spouse and doesn't want to go home, just can't get work done in the allotted time, spins their wheels, etc? Dedication is great but when you see that someone's car is there when you arrive and there when you leave it is impossible to not wonder what is lacking outside of work. I work for a living, I don't live to work.
As far as older and experienced programmers writing better code goes I suppose this is largely true but it does ignore some truths about human nature such as resistance to change or people being stuck in their ways. Someone could have years of experience and also completely suck at what they do. There will always be people who make you wonder how they hold on to a job. I'm sure we have all seen this. I also know some people with 20+ years of coding experience and to me their biggest problem is that they have had 20 jobs over those years. I personally don't see how they would be attractive as potential hires compared to someone that has been at the same company for 20 years (assuming they bot specialize in the task the company is looking for). Now as a consultant perhaps but not an employee.
Cheers
May 14, 2012 at 8:14 am
I have been doing programming since I graduated from college in 1977.
Back in those days it was programming not software engineer.
Although I do work as a consultant and am not employed full time by a company, I
enjoy programming and like to be able to give my clients the results they want.
To move to a higher position has never been a goal of mine. I like what I do too much
to give it up. Granted I probably could have stayed with one company and moved up
to some type of management or supervisor position, I would not have enjoyed that
type of job
Rod
May 14, 2012 at 8:30 am
jfogel (5/14/2012)
I also know some people with 20+ years of coding experience and to me their biggest problem is that they have had 20 jobs over those years. I personally don't see how they would be attractive as potential hires compared to someone that has been at the same company for 20 years (assuming they bot specialize in the task the company is looking for). Now as a consultant perhaps but not an employee.
On the flip side I've seen people working for the same company for 20+ years and rarely exposed to new technologies, platforms or the cross pollination that is essential for good creative thinking to develop and flourish.... in other words stagnated skill set wise.
A new job every year is probably not good when you are just starting out but for a consultant it can typically be an indication of success and a measurement of aptitude & skill set.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
May 14, 2012 at 8:35 am
"A new job every year is probably not good when you are just starting out but for a consultant it can typically be an indication of success and a measurement of aptitude & skill set."
This was my point
Cheers
May 14, 2012 at 9:02 am
Capt. Sigerson (5/14/2012)
Thank you, Steve. This was one of your better editorials and highlights an attitude than is too prevalent in our industry.
you are welcome, and sounds like a good career you have going.
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May 14, 2012 at 9:09 am
Terrific editorial, Steve.
I'm aged 56, and after a couple of successful stints in IT management, I returned, of my own volition, to software development some years ago. And at risk of sounding immodest, I think I've only gotten better at it over time.
Not only do I enjoy the challenges of software engineering, but I also get a kick out of mentoring the developers in our shop who are half my age. They start off wondering what an old goat might possibly know that they don't already. Eventually they discover the old goat is indeed an old goat - but one who knows a few tricks, too.
Thanks again.
May 14, 2012 at 9:21 am
Being driven soley by Date usually means you don't have enough time to think about good solutions. 🙂
Short cuts and rework then can give an illusion of activity as the hours pile up to meet the time being dictated.
Many times slowing down a bit makes more real progress.
Old doesn't always mean good or experienced, while young might not mean they can come up with good solutions.
Those who can look at problems from several different perspectives, and select good scalable solutions consistently, are the gems in the industry.
The ability to learn from your mistakes is also a key.
And being good at a skill like programming or carpentry does not have much bearing on management ability.
No more than saying all hiring managers know enough to always hire the best person for any position.
May 14, 2012 at 9:32 am
Thanks, Steve -- I got good laugh out of this.
I am 65 and still have lots of fun learning new stuff and keeping my edge sharp.
Edit: Re "... older programmers often can't, or won't, work as many hours as younger ones": I have on my team two young moms who have to pick their kids from kindergarten or drive them to a karate class or baseball practice. So if there is a sudden problem, it is a foregone conclusion who will work longer hours to handle it.
May 14, 2012 at 9:35 am
Craig-315134 (5/14/2012)
Terrific editorial, Steve.I'm aged 56, and after a couple of successful stints in IT management, I returned, of my own volition, to software development some years ago. And at risk of sounding immodest, I think I've only gotten better at it over time.
Not only do I enjoy the challenges of software engineering, but I also get a kick out of mentoring the developers in our shop who are half my age. They start off wondering what an old goat might possibly know that they don't already. Eventually they discover the old goat is indeed an old goat - but one who knows a few tricks, too.
Thanks again.
]
Thanks for the note and I wish more people had your attitude and more managers recognized it.
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