May 5, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Nicole Bowman (5/5/2009)
[...]think about problems/issues, and write (hopefully) in a clear and professional manner[...]
This is terribly dependant on the social context, and that comment, is, I guess, dependant on my previous comment about pattern recognition.
Discussing the abstract requirements of normalising a database's address fields with a farmer who is primarily concerned with Economic Farm Surplus (translation cost low profit high) can be positively enlightening, I guess because of the similarity in pattern recognition between two cognition systems.
Discussing the concrete requirements for effective elimination of a rabbit population from a high density horse breeding area with the local pest control officer can also be positively enlightening, again, I guess because of the similarity in pattern recognition between cognition systems.
Discussing the issues of hardware penetration for an 802.11n network in a rural area that doesn't have more than dial-up access speeds from the encumbent telecoms provider, can also be ... you get the idea ok.
The degree is a side effect of the way of thinking. Just because someone doesn't have the degree doesn't mean they don't have that way of thinking. Just because someone has the degree, doesn't mean they do have that way of thinking. It can just mean they have a sufficient degree (no pun intended) of basic animal cunning to get by with.
Peter Edmunds ex-Geek
May 5, 2009 at 7:47 pm
LOL... love the metaphor's 🙂
Well, at the end of the day, I think it's about breadth. On coming back from a short stint in the USAF after high-school, I fell into the family business (construction), and learned all phases of residential building (ground-to-roof). I often thought that all framers should have to be finish carpenters for a stint so they'd understand why spacing, blocking, and dimension was important. I feel the same about DBA's these days, as well as SE's, SA's, etc. The number of poorly architected database's I've had to either fix, resolve, write reports against, launch major projects against, write UI's for, or just keep running never ceases to amaze me. For the same reason, all DBA's should have to program for a stint, and all programmers should have to architect databases and then build the UI's for a stint. Same is true for NE's and SE's... criminy... narrowmindedness is the bane of the EIA... and breadth, no matter how obtained, is invaluable to the overall success of a project. I think the greatest travesty of the last decade is the number of programmers coming up who have no appreciation for good data-architecture. "Just create a table, maybe toss a data-key on it, and do the rest in the UI..." :crying:
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
May 5, 2009 at 7:56 pm
:-):-D:smooooth:
Well, you made my day with that post, just sometimes I get the idea that I'm talking to the trees, then someone comes along who's, more than likely, actually talking the same language.
😎
Peter Edmunds ex-Geek
May 5, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Sounds like we are on the same page! I think breadth of experience helps you with forward thinking and planning and a myriad of other things. It can help you understand someone's problem and come up with appropriate solutions.
Essentially it's about learning to take your experiences and skills, and adapt them to situations.
Cheers.
Nicole Bowman
Nothing is forever.
May 6, 2009 at 2:08 am
I am not a DBA, I am a programmer and have a CS degree. I found that there was very little content on how the code you were writting interacts with the underlying system e.g. SQL Server. In my case they did not make you think about writting efficient code. Perhaps this would have been a step to far when learning a programing language which is heavy enough in itself however it is experiance and self study that has taught me to think about the underlying system.
I guess my rambling is trying to say they don't really each you in my experiance anything that would eb of use to a DBA! Other than perhaps some basic SQL!
I have been tasked with doing DBA work over the years and this has like the above post said been good for me. All programers should have to do it as part of their trade.
May 6, 2009 at 7:21 am
My degrees
BA in Biblical Studies
MDiv(BL) (Master of Divinity with Biblical Languages)
How did I get here?
I was a bi-vocational pastor and for a while my "bi-vocation" was as a temp at a temp agency. I did a "one-month" gig at a manufacturing plant in the maintenance department entering work orders into a home-grown Microsoft Access db.
I got interested in how Access worked and started creating other databases (nothing too complicated!) for our department and then for other departments. When I finally understood the "relational" part of "relational databases" I was hooked.
One thing led to another and I applied for an opening in the IT dept doing desktop break-fix stuff. All the while I still worked with Access.
When we bought PeopleSoft, the consultants told us that we needed someone full time to administer the system. Two analysts from the Applications group and I applied. I got the job. That was my first exposure to SQL Server (Version 7).
I now take care of our PeopleSoft and Kronos environments as well as other SQL Server responsibilities.
I love what I do although there are days I feel very inadequate (like a "jack of all trades, master of none"). I read a lot and get a lot of help from the folks on this and other forums and so far, it has worked out for me.
BTW, that "one-month" gig I mentioned above... that was 14 years ago...
Does my degree help me in my current job now?]
It certainly affects how I deal with and interact with people, but it doesn't help with the technical aspects of the job.
May 6, 2009 at 7:39 am
actually - I DO have a CS 4 year degree... but then I am not JUST a DBA - I also help a fair amount with accounting, manufacturing, revenue reporting... and some of the logic courses (which were the worst part of school back then) I find were the most valuable many years later.
May 6, 2009 at 8:36 am
K. Brian Kelley (5/5/2009)
Yes, Jeremy, I know you know I'm an extreme case, but the bottom line is that I know you've worked with a number of DBAs who would say their degree is not needed. I know one who would say his mechanical engineering Ph.D. proved helpful because of the analysis skills he developed as a result, but you get the drift.
I think you're a pretty extreme guy in-general 😀
But yeah, I definately agree. More to the point of "If you think it is useful it probably is."
Certainly not to degrade the value of such a thing to the interested parties.
May 6, 2009 at 8:46 am
If you don't have a degree, you don't know what you're missing. The fact that poorly built databases are developed by those with degrees doesn't mean a degree didn't help them. Or that it doesn't help you at all.
I think a degree gives you a quicker boost in life than you get from work experience. Not necessarily all work experience, but overall. You learn a lot in a short time, and you learn how to teach yourself to learn quickly. That's only a boost at the start.
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May 6, 2009 at 8:49 am
Want to say two things that do not seem very correct. One there are degree programs that have Database credits, there is not a program that is exclusively for us database-ers but MSIS programs DO offer some solid grounding in normalisation techniques, data modelling and even object oriented data models. There are many database-ers including DBAs with every certification you can imagine who need this grounding, those techno geeky people who think databases are bound to how MS implements them and clicking on GUI is enough to know how to create a table. I am not saying do a degree to get it - there are other ways to learn too jsut don't know too many people who have time and motivation to learn entirely on their own.
Just getting by in jobs does not teach concepts. Again it is possible to spend a lifetime making enough money, just knowing a product or products but nothing about the concepts on which it is based. It just might not be for everyone and yes it is rare such folks make it any higher than DBAs perhaps with same type of folks who hire them - if that is all they need that is fine too but let us not devalue education in that name.
May 6, 2009 at 8:59 am
dma (5/5/2009)
I have to disagree on that, that the longer you are a technician they want you to move into management. Managerial skills are much easier to find than technical skills, especially niche technical skills that become environment specific. Where I work there are people who are technicians for 10, 15 + years same position. They do get pay hikes and the ones who want to move up go for PMP certs and so on but not everyone wants to, given the fact that managerial positions are limited, not everyone enjoys or has managerial people/political skills but those who want to have to try. For those of us who do not want to go the standard managerial way this is a real issue, since our skills do not even stay current unless we work on it. The managers do not have to work any on their skills usually.
I agree with your disagreement 😀
The more competent you prove at a very technical position, the more you get pigeonholed into that position. Then you're faced with the hard reality that in order to get ahead in life and meet your personal life goals you'll have to look elsewhere outside of an organization. This seems to be true no matter what kind of educational background you may have.
Edit: Need a formal spelling education to write a post. 🙂
May 6, 2009 at 9:00 am
I'd also like to address the lack of DBA specific CIS tracks. That's one of the reasons why instead of pursuing a 4 year degree at the moment I'm working towards an AS. My local community college offers a CIS degree program that is split into 3 concentrations, Database Adminsitration, Systems Engineer, or Desktop Support. Obviously, I'm in the DBA track. I do have to say that the coursework has helped to better my understanding of normalization.
Additionally, it was through this program that I was given my first experience working with Oracle both on the Windows and Unix platforms. It allowed me to realize that I'd rather work with SQL server if I can at all help it. So I guess that has sort of helped my career already.
-Luke.
May 6, 2009 at 12:58 pm
While I will agree that getting a degree is good for personal character development, I do not think it is a requirement for the IT field per-se. I have hired 4 year CS degreed employees that couldn't perform as if they had any skills and I have hired 2 year AS degree students that operated as if they had been in the industry for 10 years or better.
I admit that I am biased as I still do not have a degree (even though I have full intentions of getting one as soon as workload and child rearing permit - which may be never), but it is for my own sense of accomplishment, not for anything work related at all.
I think it is a superficial thing to require a degree over experience. Had there been more to actually learn in the IT courses I have taken in college, I might have a degree. As it is, I knew more then and still do today than all of the IT professors I talk to in universities. I can't say the same for Microsoft trainers and Evangelists as they teach me new stuff all the time. I do spend a significant amount of time reading and paying attention to what is going on out there. A college degree would not help with that. I can see where some people might need the repitition and the testing aspect taught to them to learn how to do do these things, but the degree itself I think is irrelevant.
May 6, 2009 at 1:05 pm
My degree is an Bachelors of Architecture from Illinois Institute of Technology.
I got into computers because I was always fiddling with upgrading hardware to make my CADD software run faster. When the corporation I work for stopped building buildings and started leasing them I found myself in a position to jump departments and move into the IT field. I am a self proclaimed AR (Anal Retentive) person who is very detail oriented. The architecture curriculum trained me to be the way I am and I think those skills help me in performing my role as a DBA in my work.
May 6, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Hi Cherie...
cherie j sheriff (5/6/2009)
I think it is a superficial thing to require a degree over experience. Had there been more to actually learn in the IT courses I have taken in college, I might have a degree. As it is, I knew more then and still do today than all of the IT professors I talk to in universities. I can't say the same for Microsoft trainers and Evangelists as they teach me new stuff all the time. I do spend a significant amount of time reading and paying attention to what is going on out there. A college degree would not help with that. I can see where some people might need the repitition and the testing aspect taught to them to learn how to do do these things, but the degree itself I think is irrelevant.
I felt the same before... but I'd posit that your perspective will change if you ever get the chance to engage the adventure (mine had to wait until the kids were gone to finish as well). Most good BIT/MIT - BIS/MIS degrees now have a well rounded and focused curriculum. While I agree that a non-CS/IS/IT degree is of limited value in the field beyond overlapping skillsets aside from the learning disciplines obtained, I don't agree the same is true for CS/IS/IT focused degrees. It takes both education + experience to master the larger breadth implications and how it affects whatever depth discipline one engages (DBA, SE, etc). I spend a good deal of time 'splaining why certain processes/practices are important and getting folks to think 'out of the box'... and most of those that struggle with the larger concepts are those that have great depth, but limited breadth.
JM2c 😎
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
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