May 5, 2009 at 10:56 am
Well... I've done it without a degree, then finally went back and finished the BIT, then MIT, and now doing a DCS... my earlier opinion was that it wasn't that relevant, but I must admit, it's much easier and more productive having been exposed to the breadth/depth. For better or worse, my opinions also carry much greater weight, and no explanation is needed re: competency... though 20yrs of experience in addition helps :alien:
In the end, if all one wants to do is pursue a narrow field of expertise (DBA, SE, etc), then it doesn't seem to be as beneficial. But if pursuing a broader field is desired (EIA, CIO, CTO, etc), then it can be invaluable.
JM2c... 😎
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
May 5, 2009 at 10:59 am
For me its simple. To be a good DBA you have to understand how SQL Server behaves. In order to do that you need to have experience in the trenches where SQL Server is behaving badly. No degree will teach you this. Attend the school of hard-knocks where you have a boss that understands less about SQL Server than you do upset because SQL Server isn't working the way they think it should.
Once you've attended that school for a couple of years, things start falling into place. You research and resolve problems, discover best practices that allow you to sleep at night, and gradually work yourself to the point in your career where you decide being a greeter at Wall Mart would have been a better career move 😀
May 5, 2009 at 11:00 am
I am one of those with a music degree. It was the the late 70's and I was playing and teaching music and not making much money. A friend offered me a job programming computers - to which I responded that I had never touched one (they weren't available at the small college I attended in the early 70's). He said that was OK, they would train me. After starting the job with 5 other trainees, I advanced very quickly within the company and couldn't believe how easy this work was and how much it paid compared to the music field. I noticed after some months that the other 5 people who had started with me were still trying to figure out the first job.
Maybe there is something to the relationship of music to what is required to be a DBA/programmer. My training is all seat of the pants and hard work.
May 5, 2009 at 11:02 am
I am not really a DBA, but need to interact with SQL in doing reports and some web design. But to the point. I have a B.S. in Computer Science from many years ago (about the time Relational DB's came into being). I have picked up some classes since then, but mostly I get my info from reading, trying and interacting with coworkers.
The bottom line, a degree in IT may not necessary, but it might avoid some extra work to get the basics. I have seen a lot of programming snafus because someone had a vague idea of what they were doing.
May 5, 2009 at 11:14 am
Undergraduate: BA Economics / History
Graduate: JD/MBA
I had no idea what I wanted to do in college, so I listened to what everyone told me I should do. My foray into computers stemmed from being a starving student and finding that people payed good money to have a working machine. I took a couple of programming classes, but found them to be largly useless and taught by people who wouldn't survive if their lives depended on writing functional code. However a lot of the theory was usefull, so I took the theory and left the syntax. Books and experiments have been the core of my education, I also taken a lot of odd jobs just to learn how to do a variety of things first hand.
May 5, 2009 at 11:19 am
What is your college degree in?
BS in Theoretical Mathematics.
When I started college in 1975 I had already been programming for almost 5 years, however, there weren't any schools that offered an IT or IS type degree (and not for many years) only 3 schools in the country (and possibly the world) that offered a degree in CompSci separate from Mathematics: CMU, Stanford and MIT. Well I sure wasn't getting into them (tried though), however, I didn't really see my interest in computers as separate from my interest in Math anyway (still don't), so that worked out OK.
How did you get from where you started to where you are today?
Well first I am not a DBA (though I think that I could be), technically I would be closer to a database developer, but really I am a database and development consultant (who consults in some other things as well). I have been a consultant for over 25 years and early on it was clear to me that being an intentional professional consultant was an entire second set of professional skills and responsibilities on top of the technical content skills that would be necessary for that job in an employee role. Which is a long way of saying that being a "DBA consultant" or a "Database & Development consultant", when done right, is a different job from being a DBA or a Database Developer.
And last of all, does your college degree really make all that much difference in your success as a DBA?
This is actually two different questions: 1) did having your "sheepskin" really make a difference? and 2) did doing what you had to do to get your degree, really make a difference? And the answer to both is an unqualified Yes.
As for this first, there are many important jobs and contracts that I would not have gotten if I did not have my degree. Most especially was the 10 years that I worked for DEC, circa 1983-1993. I applied and interviewed 3 times before I got that job and it was a near thing even then. I am certain that I never would have been hired without my college degree. and that job was the critical one in my career because of the training, knowledge, practices and many, many contacts that I acquired through it.
As for the second, although I was already someone who did a lot of learning on my own, college amp-ed that up to the next level teaching not just to learn, but also how-to learn and how to go about it methodically. For one thing, it was the first time in my life that I had contact with people whom I had to admit were definitely smarter than me. Beside the much needed arrogance-shearing that that initiated, it also allowed me to learn just how valuable access to such people was and how valuable real expertise and real experts could be. College also forced me to learn all kinds of theories, principles and practices that I never would have gotten around to learning on my own. And finally, my specialization in Mathematics was in Logic and Set Theory, which I was sure that I would never again have any use for, but, proved to be very handy when Relational Theory and relational databases came along.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
May 5, 2009 at 11:21 am
No offense to anyone with a CS degree but its probably going to be the case where most people who have a CS degree will say that its helpful to have one to be a DBA. Nobody wants to admit that they spend a lot of money and time for a degree that isn't neccesary.
This isn't to insinuate that a degree isn't useful, rather to make the point that any degree is a big comittment to your career in general. I think we'd be hard-pressed to find formally educated people who make the statement that it isn't needed or helpful.
With that being said it also depends on the situation you find yourself in as a DBA. Some situations require great troubleshooting skills and operational know-how (standards and best practices at the system admin level). Others require great problem solving skills through coding solutions using tried and true coding best practices.
DBAs are unique because anyone who's been doing it for a while will have both skill sets. Although there will be some bias to one side or the other depending on personality and varying mentalities.
With that being said, I can honestly say that formal training isn't for everyone. Certain mentalities respond better in situational settings, others respond better in academic settings. Therefore its the responsability of the individual to identify these characteristics about their own mentalities and train appropriately.
The net result is - "goodness" is subjective and situational. The trick to hiring a new DBA is not so much seeing what his or her academic or experiential knowledge is. Rather to see if their "goodness" can shine through in your subjective situation. That's more of a personality evaluation.
For example, if I hire a DBA for the environment I'm working in, I'd look for the basic knowledge with a thirst to dig deeper and ask a lot of questions. A certain "alertness" level, if you will...
May 5, 2009 at 11:33 am
malathi.mahadevan (5/5/2009)
Wayne (and all), would love to hear some words of wisdom on future of DBA positions in the next 10-20 years. I am not talking of future of SQL Server/MS and so on but perhaps from an individual's standpoint, what does a DBA with 30-40 years of experience do when he/she gets into 60s or 70s?
It depends on you, your ambitions and how you handle change. If you like your profession now, there is a good chance you will still be fond of it in the future. Of course, if you perform the same role in different organisations, you'll have variety, which may make things more interesting and keep you motivated. The products you work with will change which will add spice.
I know at least one guy, who is still working with databases in his mid 70s and he consults, teaches, develops and runs his own company - plenty to keep him busy.
How does one take this experience to the next level if there is one,
see above for the next level
and woudl a degree help in this regard? !!
Not to get to the next level, IMHO,but it depends on what you want to do and whether you are motivated to get a degree.
Once you have experience, a degree is a piece of paper, which may or may not help get past hurdles.
May 5, 2009 at 11:37 am
As I mentioned above, I have a CS degree. Would I say what I learned in my CS program was directly helpful to what I do today as a DBA, no.
It was useful while I a programmer/developer. There was some course work that dealt with relational databases, but it mostly dealt with normalization/denormalization and database design, but nothing with regard to actually building databases or querying them or tuning them. All that I learned through hands on OJT starting with Borland InterBase and Microsoft SQL Server 6.5.
I would also say my experience as a Computer Operator and System Administrator was also directly helpful with my current position as a DBA. Learning more about how operating systems work, and what errors messages are really telling you.
I had a supervisor at a previous employer who (jokingly, I know) said he kept me around for the 3 problems a year that occurred that his pure hardware and pure programmer people couldn't solve. I had the breadth of knowledge and experience to span the two and figure out some of the problems neither of them could solve alone.
May 5, 2009 at 11:42 am
Jeremy Brown (5/5/2009)
No offense to anyone with a CS degree but its probably going to be the case where most people who have a CS degree will say that its helpful to have one to be a DBA. Nobody wants to admit that they spend a lot of money and time for a degree that isn't neccesary.This isn't to insinuate that a degree isn't useful, rather to make the point that any degree is a big comittment to your career in general. I think we'd be hard-pressed to find formally educated people who make the statement that it isn't needed or helpful.
Though you may not have intended offense by this it is nonetheless somewhat offensive. I could just as easily turn this around by saying that "Nobody wants to admit that they got the wrong degree, that they spent a lot of time and money for the wrong thing, and would have been much better off with the right degree." or even worse: "Nobody wants to admit that their inability to get a Degree has had a significant impact on their life and career. I think we'd be hard-pressed to find people without formal education here who will make the statement that they should have gotten one." But I wouldn't say things like that because they are rude and offensive.
Rather than try to dismiss and invalidate other's opinions because their personal backgrounds and experiences might color their judgment, I think that we would all be better off to value and seriously consider each others viewpoints as being enhanced and informed by those same personal backgrounds and experiences.
Your choice.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
May 5, 2009 at 11:43 am
Lynn Pettis (5/5/2009)
As I mentioned above, I have a CS degree. Would I say what I learned in my CS program was directly helpful to what I do today as a DBA, no.I had a supervisor at a previous employer who (jokingly, I know) said he kept me around for the 3 problems a year that occurred that his pure hardware and pure programmer people couldn't solve. I had the breadth of knowledge and experience to span the two and figure out some of the problems neither of them could solve alone.
LOL... I would posit that you had the breadth at least in part because of the material you were exposed to in obtaining the degree 😀
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
May 5, 2009 at 11:50 am
Jeremy Brown (5/5/2009)
No offense to anyone with a CS degree but its probably going to be the case where most people who have a CS degree will say that its helpful to have one to be a DBA. Nobody wants to admit that they spend a lot of money and time for a degree that isn't neccesary.This isn't to insinuate that a degree isn't useful, rather to make the point that any degree is a big comittment to your career in general. I think we'd be hard-pressed to find formally educated people who make the statement that it isn't needed or helpful....
Hmmmm... well, as mentioned, I did this before the degree (for 12yrs), then did the CS/IT route... and it goes both ways. When I didn't have the degree(s), I thought the same way. I was a subject-matter expert and relatively well considered in that arena... however, I was amiss in the weight of that opinion. The degree's are definitely worth the effort, and for a true geek, learning is a great challenge regardless :alien:
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
May 5, 2009 at 11:58 am
RBarryYoung (5/5/2009)
Though you may not have intended offense by this it is nonetheless somewhat offensive. I could just as easily turn this around by saying that "Nobody wants to admit that they got the wrong degree, that they spent a lot of time and money for the wrong thing, and would have been much better off with the right degree." or even worse: "Nobody wants to admit that their inability to get a Degree has had a significant impact on their life and career. I think we'd be hard-pressed to find people without formal education here who will make the statement that they should have gotten one." But I wouldn't say things like that because they are rude and offensive.
Oooh, ooh. I'll admit it. I spent two years in film school and that money & time are never coming back. To call it a waste of time is a bit harsh, but it sure didn't add to my career in any way whatsoever and I could have more usefully spent that time working on a CS degree, even if I had dropped out of that too.
Rather than try to dismiss and invalidate other's opinions because their personal backgrounds and experiences might color their judgment, I think that we would all be better off to value and seriously consider each others viewpoints as being enhanced and informed by those same personal backgrounds and experiences.
Your choice.
However, I agree with you. I don't knock anyone who went the full sheepskin route, regardless of degree. I think, if anything, you guys had an easier time of it starting out when I had to scratch & claw my way into places where you just sauntered. I can see the difference.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
May 5, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Amen!! That is my point too, degrees add depth of knowledge and as one grows in age and experience that is a very necessary thing. I guess the DBA profession is not that old that nobody talks of age related experiences a whole lot other than a few people who went to 70s or 80s. There are some world class DBAs i knwo but they dont' know a whole lot more than the world of SQL Server. That is the help a degree provides atleast to my knowledge - you get out of the product based rut and know something more that outlasts much longer than products and versions. I can't say much for how that translates into work yet, but i do know it makes me feel much better than being tied down to MS and what they do with their products.
May 5, 2009 at 12:02 pm
It is fine to say that a degree does not help beyond the initial stages of one's career, and many of the people saying they don't necessarily look at that criterion for hiring are sincere. However, it is also true that many hiring managers will never see anyone without a degree because they will not get the resumes through HR to even make that choice. It is also true that in a consulting career, most companies specifically require a degree. Beyond the fact that, for those with little experience, the only thing a potential employer has to go on is the credential, achieving a degree should at least teach one how to learn, how to source information to solve problems, and how to discipline oneself to a certain extent. I worked for 23 years without a degree. From that experience, and also many years of hiring and managing people, the two biggest problems for those without a degree to overcome are (1) the defensiveness that frequently occurs because of the lack of a degree, and (2) the difficulty getting interviews to move their career forward.
The degree, in and of itself, is not any kind of overall solution to life's challenges, but in many respects it sure helps ease the way. I acquired my first degree to solve problem number 2 above. Most of my education has been non-traditional, and just reflects a love of learning. Fortunately, I was also able to parlay it into multiple additional degrees without much deviation from my normal learning pathways.
As an aside, those who have a music degree have a tremendous advantage in the computer field, because music is nearly pure applied math, whether they were taught that way or not. Sets, pattern recognition, etc. are inherent in developing and understanding music.
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