May 20, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Do You Have a Problem?
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May 21, 2009 at 6:05 am
I think the inherent contradiction in your own editorial highlights the biggest problem with DBAs. Quoting your own words...
"Too often we find people acting as a DBA, even having that title, without the experience to really understand if they have a problem."
But then you go on to say...
"From anyone but a DBA that might not seem like an argument..."
In one case you acknowledge that there is no good definition of what a DBA is, and then you contradict yourself by saying "anyone but a DBA" as though that has a more rigid and clear definition!
And therein is the problem, has been the problem, and will be the problem - there is no standard for what a DBA is. Why can't we come up with a clear set of boundaries, knowledge and talents that warrants the title "DBA"? Why can't we have a title something like DBS (Database Specialist) for those who do some DBA-style duties, but don't really know enough to warrant the title DBA?
In my career I have probably interviewed 50 to 100 people applying for DBA positions. I would venture a guess that maybe 10 of those people had the kind of knowledge and talents that actually warrant the DBA title. The rest? They were called "DBA" in given jobs because they did backups and maybe wrote a couple stored procedures, but they did not know SQL Server in any breadth or scope.
Based on that kind of logic... I know how to work a steering wheel, and I can step on some pedals, and I know how to push levers forward and back, and I can also flip switches and talk over a radio... Therefore, I MUST be a fully qualified 747 pilot!!! Right?
May 21, 2009 at 6:18 am
I agree the hardware can hide an awful lot of bad and inefficient code. For a small business - why hire an expensive DBA, you can get a dual processor quad-xeon raid server for the price of the recruitment agencys fees, never mind the salary. Get one of the developers doing the DBA role. Its been like this in most places I've worked.
May 21, 2009 at 6:33 am
blandry (5/21/2009)
I think the inherent contradiction in your own editorial highlights the biggest problem with DBAs. Quoting your own words..."Too often we find people acting as a DBA, even having that title, without the experience to really understand if they have a problem."
But then you go on to say...
"From anyone but a DBA that might not seem like an argument..."
In one case you acknowledge that there is no good definition of what a DBA is, and then you contradict yourself by saying "anyone but a DBA" as though that has a more rigid and clear definition!
And therein is the problem, has been the problem, and will be the problem - there is no standard for what a DBA is. Why can't we come up with a clear set of boundaries, knowledge and talents that warrants the title "DBA"? Why can't we have a title something like DBS (Database Specialist) for those who do some DBA-style duties, but don't really know enough to warrant the title DBA?
In my career I have probably interviewed 50 to 100 people applying for DBA positions. I would venture a guess that maybe 10 of those people had the kind of knowledge and talents that actually warrant the DBA title. The rest? They were called "DBA" in given jobs because they did backups and maybe wrote a couple stored procedures, but they did not know SQL Server in any breadth or scope.
Based on that kind of logic... I know how to work a steering wheel, and I can step on some pedals, and I know how to push levers forward and back, and I can also flip switches and talk over a radio... Therefore, I MUST be a fully qualified 747 pilot!!! Right?
I think Steve's question still stands, Do You Have A Problem? Even if your 'DBA' is not a 'DBA' in the sense that you imply, if your shop doesn't have any major issues, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". It simply becomes a software issue rather than hardware.
That's a joke about flesh, not programming. funnier in my head.
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
May 21, 2009 at 6:33 am
is the DBA qualified to do their job?
Who cares?
As long as nothing breaks then they're a success!!
The problem in a smaller company is that no one in the company is qualified to tell if the success was down to the DBA or the hardware or just luck
Bringing in an external expert to carry out a one day system audit once a year could save some potential red faces
May 21, 2009 at 6:38 am
You forgot something very important that I learned very early on in my career. Sometimes, you just have to sit back and let bad things happen, or now one knows you're there.
We had one guy that was in charge of four alpha-clusters and seven other Vaxen. Of those, three instances of Oracle were being maintained. One guy was responsible for System Administration and DBA. Repeatedly, he asked for advancement opportunities or just a chance to step out into something new. Finally, disgusted, he voted with his feet.
No one cared. These systems were so stable that he seldom did anything but stare at his computer and write new scripts. He wouldn't be missed.
In the end, he was replaced with three system administrators and two DBAs. It took five people to do what this guy was doing single-handed. And, I don't know whether these guys were just more politically savvy, or if he was just that good, but before he left, these machines (except for the one development box) had 0.0000% unscheduled downtime. Something never again repeated to that degree.
I'm not sure how one goes about fixing that. But the fact of the matter is, most managers and other industry leaders just don't have the know-how to measure computer administration performance.
May 21, 2009 at 6:42 am
If the company and the users are happy with the database performance then as far as they are concerned it is working. My company doesn't have a real DBA, only me. No developers either.
However, thanks to sites like yours and others I now monitor my SQL servers and also do updates for them. So please keep providing the training for those who want it. I'd like to think real DBAs aren't born they develop, sometimes under pressure.
For those of us who have to perform multiple functions besides DBA, having a working system is sometimes all we can hope for.
May 21, 2009 at 7:02 am
DBAs aren't born they develop, sometimes under pressure
I agree on that Dave, Every one learns something new every day, and as it says CHANGE is the word that never Changes 😀
As others said no company knows what an DBA does, Mostly on small companies, Commercial department thinks DBA as a waste of money, I work for a small company, when i am hired a year ago all the systems are not maintained, no backup and no DR strategy, i changed every thing in this year ( not being a big head or something), but still my managing director thinks that i am not doing any job that makes him money :-D, but its my IT director who backs me up since he has seen the systems improve after i came, not evey one have this luxury.
But still there is an attitude as Steve said "if it ayent broken why fix it"
I answered this as, if you maintain its not broken, if you want me not to do that then it will break and then i can fix it :-D, its a bit rude but its the fact:-P
May 21, 2009 at 7:13 am
I fall into that group of people that have been recruited to do DBA work from another field. I did receive some training, but I'm still not anywhere near the level of a well-trained DBA.
Looking at your "DBA's That Need Your Help" section, it is apparent that there are many more like me (and some with no training at all) also doing DBA work. While some of the questions indicate sophisticated problems, many of them are at a very basic level which indicates a very low level of training.
This IS a problem, both for the DBA profession and for the IT profession in general. Some problems cannot be solved with hardware.
May 21, 2009 at 7:22 am
rboggess (5/21/2009)
You forgot something very important that I learned very early on in my career. Sometimes, you just have to sit back and let bad things happen, or now one knows you're there.
Wow. Wag the Dog, anyone? Should our Army/Navy/Marines just let someone come take over the country, so that we value their services more?
As a DBA, (or any other employee, for that matter, from the guy flipping burgers to the CEO of a major corporation) your duty is to make sure things run smoothly, not stroke your ego by letting things break and fixing them up to look good. If you're not good enough to document all the things that you do, and the stellar performance level it operates at, then perhaps there are other issues.
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
May 21, 2009 at 7:29 am
This reminds me of an infamous quote from current Cleveland mayor Frank Jackson:
"The problem is we have a problem. It's not that we don't know we have a problem, we've known it for years. It's not that we don't know what the solutions are, we've known those for years. The problem is we haven't done anything about it." :rolleyes:
Seriously though, I suppose the situation really depends on what type of system it is, and who the target audience is. A small internal system like the 4 user scenario described in the editorial could very easily be run on a single small server or virtual server setup, and with limmited planned maintenance could run fine for years. A larger system or a system intended to be used by external people, customers, clients, or partners faces a whole different level of expectations and needs.
An example of this where I currently work, we implement and host systems for external clients. Our production DBA has been doing alot of training on the job, and I've tried to help guide that both directly and indirectly. However, I still have problems trying to get across the importance of having failover capacity for the database. He keeps talking about plans to build a cluster, but they've been planning for a year and still no cluster exists, mostly now because of budget. So multiple times I've tried to discuss alternate means of failover capabilities, but he always has an excuse as to why we can't do it. I just hope we get something in place before we have a major problem and potentially loose a client because it took too long to get them back up and running.
May 21, 2009 at 7:50 am
Steve, though this isn't perhaps a perfect reply to your post, my views are:
- Not everyone can afford a DBA, whether we think they should or not
- There is logic and value in buying a little more hardware than you need, especially if the problem goes away
- Buying excess hardware 'just in case' ties up valuable liquidity (capex) that the business could use better in other places
- We should encourage and teach anyone that will listen, but they have to be ready to hear the message
May 21, 2009 at 7:50 am
jcrawf02 (5/21/2009)
Wow. Wag the Dog, anyone? Should our Army/Navy/Marines just let someone come take over the country, so that we value their services more?
Our Congress already does this. But you're correct, leadership within the Department of Energy is severly lacking. It's wonderful working for a real company now, where performance actually matters. (No kidding, it's extremely difficult to fire an exempt employee because it can't easily be demonstrated that performance failures of individuals has any impact on the performance of a government facility.) In the end, I'm sure he's much better off for having left -- for a multitude of reasons.
As for documentation, at a federal nuclear materials enrichment facility, you don't fart without filling out paperwork. He certainly did document, and in each annual review, he tried his damnest to explain why he spent so much time performing premptive scripting and what exactly that meant.
But who cares about all those fancy-shmancy scripts for a system that never shuts down? I'm not saying I condone allowing it to fail, I'm just pointing out the problem of working a technical job in an environment where no one understands what you do. And it's not that it wasn't a technical facility, there are a higher concentration of engineering employees there than in most industries.
Of course the fact that management referred to these control-system computers were referred to as "those damn ataries" by management spoke volumns. The tools for measuring his performance just don't exist, even to this day as technical jobs become ever more specialized, it's difficult to find acceptance of performance measures for invisible performance results.
Not to beat a dead horse, but this actually is a problem today between our soldiers and the mercenaries working along side them. Our soldiers work for almost food-stamp wages, while the guy standing next to them is getting paid outrages mercenary fees, and doesn't have to put up with nearly as much crap. So, if that soldier were only looking out for his best interests, he probably would allow things to fail. Of course, if he's politically minded, not in an obvious way, but in such a way as to allow minor failures to provide indication of just how overwhelmed he really is. They don't perform because they're valued, they don't succeed because their middle management (Congress) provides good leadership, but in spite of it. They do it because they have integrity, not because it's the best career choice.
May 21, 2009 at 7:54 am
I think that DBAs and database developers absolutely need to know their business --- not just well enough to keep our jobs, but well enough to be proactive as well. In the average enterprise, a large body of SQL code (well written or not) may survive thru multiple backend upgrades --- even across RDBMS platform changes --- while application frontends are revised, rewritten with new tools, or even completely replaced.
This longterm survivability of SQL code makes it more important than ever that we write it to be as effective, efficient, and durable as possible. This in turn requires a level of knowledge (and interest) that goes beyond simple competence.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Many DBAs function more as operations people, instead of development people, and may feel that their primary job function is to prevent/remedy failures. And many developers are frontend applications people, whose SQL knowledge is adequate to produce the correct result, but stops there.
I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this!
May 21, 2009 at 8:26 am
OK, during my god awful number of years in IT, I have never held the title of DBA. I have done a lot of tasks typical of a DBA, and lot that aren't.
In my current postion I have been forced to learn as much as I can about SQL server from the DBA perspective.
Why?
Because our ERP software has really flaky stuff happen. Seriously flaky stuff that cannot be explained by going through the ERP code.
What have I found? We have a company policy of not installing patches unless forced to by users, and then only the specific patch that is supposed to fix the problem. Another policy that says we won't ask our third party custom software coders whether a patch affects there code.
The question I have is "Why did our DBAs implement these policies?"
I think I know the answer based on all your posts. The answer is "Either they didn't know what they were doing, or didn't care."
Now, the rest of my questions...
Is there a certification for DBAs?
If so, is the testing process kept up to date? (Years ago I almost went for CDPM certification until I found out half the test was on setting up card sorters.)
Who decides the curriculum and testing content?
And, if there isn't a certification, what are/can you, as professional DBAs do about it?
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