July 20, 2009 at 5:30 am
I think it's cool kids are getting introduced to technology at an early age. I don't see it devaluing the exam, since the exams are hard and they're not all going to pass.
I'm in a different boat - I guess i'm a certification junkie, I've passed 50+ Microsoft exams through the years - all by experience and a bit of research on MSDN and the web. I found that studying and working toward an exam - researching - forced me to learn stuff I wouldn't have learned otherwise.
That said, I think the exams prove a minimum level of knowlege.
Mark
July 20, 2009 at 6:21 am
Perhaps I'm from a different planet, but in 40 years in the software business, both as a developer and as a hiring manager, I have never seen anyone pay any attention to any of these certifications.
July 20, 2009 at 6:31 am
The problem with most vendor certifications is that they seem to be written more by the marketing department than the technical staff. You have to know one set of "answers" for the test and another set to do your job.
July 20, 2009 at 6:36 am
Gift Peddie (7/19/2009)
I am saying even open book most minorities and women may not pass these exams.
Are you implying that woman and minorities are stupid in that they can't pass an exam even with the material available or are you implying that there's some logic in the marking of the exams to fail candidates if they are woman or members of minority groups?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 20, 2009 at 6:39 am
Bob Matthews (7/20/2009)
The problem with most vendor certifications is that they seem to be written more by the marketing department than the technical staff. You have to know one set of "answers" for the test and another set to do your job.
Well, they're written with an emphasis on 'latest and greatest'. I had one question writing one of the SQL 2008 exams. Two answers were 'right', one used features available since before SQL 2000, one used new features in 2008. While I don't know for sure which was considered right, I'm willing to bet it was the latter.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 20, 2009 at 6:40 am
wschauweker (7/20/2009)
Perhaps I'm from a different planet, but in 40 years in the software business, both as a developer and as a hiring manager, I have never seen anyone pay any attention to any of these certifications.
I think it depends on the hiring manager. I've seen managers hire people just because they were certified (bad idea) and then other managers use them as differentiators. I think it depends too on what you're looking for and what you're willing to pay for.
I think they good idea if you want to teach or consult, seems to be somewhat helpful there.
At any rate you can't argue the face that if someone take thier time and effort to learn and get certified it shows a level of committment learning and refining thier craft.
July 20, 2009 at 6:43 am
Mark Horninger (7/20/2009)
I found that studying and working toward an exam - researching - forced me to learn stuff I wouldn't have learned otherwise.
Agreed. That's why I write cert exams as well, to prove to myself that I know the basics at least of all areas of the product in question.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 20, 2009 at 6:45 am
I originally got my MCDBA on 2000 along with my MCSE and MCSA on 2000 OS. I certainly was experienced with Windows and would not have considered myself a paper MCSE or MCSA, but i was cetainly a paper MCDBA back then. However it was a stepping stone in my career. Basically taking that cert led me to the career path I am on now as a DBA. As far as the tests go, they are getting harder. I have upgraded my MCSE and MCSA on 2000 to 2003 a few years back and the tests have come a long way. Also I upgraded my MCDBA to MCITP:DBA on 2005 and most recently to 2008. The DBA tests are hard and if you are finding many paper DBA's out there then i need to get some of that paper, because its some good paper!
Jimmy
"I'm still learning the things i thought i knew!"July 20, 2009 at 6:56 am
Raju Lalvani (7/20/2009)
Most of the people take Certification exams because it makes their resume appear better.
well obviously.
They do not take it to increase their knowledge or hone their technical skills. If we look at the size of the manuals today, by the time one gets through a manual and actually tries out things, that technology is on the way out. Certification is more checking the memorizing capability rather than the knowledge of that subject.
disagree. the act of studying for the exam will reinforce your knowlege of the subject and expose you to areas you might not come across in your day to day work. Any studying\research is going to help you improve, whether you take an exam at the end of it or not.
This all comes with the caveat that IMHO in our profession experience counts for a lot, lot more than certs.
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July 20, 2009 at 7:13 am
Having the words 'Yes but I am a qualified MCDBA' put to me in a sentence to justify an answer I believed to be wrong when discussing a matter with an external supplier kind of goes with the previous posts in terms of qualifications having little to do with experience. I'm with some of the others in that I would like to see some harder peer reviewed certifications being available that don't cost twenty grand and a trip to Seattle (would never get that one through expenses...). But at the same time I'm going through the process of 'upgrading' my 2000 certs to 2008, I meant to do this with 2005 but never quite got round to it. I'm liking the fact that I have to learn about some things I never use from day to day so there is some use in it. Reviewing a CV I like to see them on there but again I'm not overly bothered if they are not.
Oh and the external got a bit sulky at my reply of 'yes, so am I but I still think you are wrong'...
July 20, 2009 at 7:16 am
Mark Horninger (7/20/2009)
At any rate you can't argue the face that if someone take thier time and effort to learn and get certified it shows a level of committment learning and refining thier craft.
Actually I can, and I do. 🙂
What taking certifications show is they know it will impress HR. It has nothing to do with learning and refining their craft. I know, I'm way too cynical... 🙂
Certifications are worthless because they're based on an exam you can cram for. The exam questions try to take the "shallow sea" approach, and with today's products that's just impossibly wrong-headed.
Today's products are too huge for one person to know them on both a broad and a deep basis. That's why software quality in general is going down. Techniques, languages, programs, they all change way too fast to gain true expertise in.
Back the late 90's the development rule of thumb was it takes two weeks to learn a language, 6 months to become proficient, and 2 *years* to become fluent. Today products are even more "feature rich" (spit).
They do the same thing 5 different ways, 2 of which are effective, 3 of which are production nightmares. Yet the documentation (especially Microsoft's but everybody's guilty) tell you *what* to do and not *why*. They give you examples that (in production) you should never *ever* use, *not even the approach, much less the actual code*.
And the tests test you on the documentation, not the product. In other words, they want you to know *everything* and be able to recite it.
But they don't care if you know how to use the products effectively.
Thus certifications are useless, and (if you're cynical) a money grab by vendors. If you *aren't* cynical they're yet another example of what road good intentions heads for...
That's why certifications are useless paper to wave under the noses of HR.
July 20, 2009 at 7:21 am
imSQrLy (7/20/2009)
I originally got my MCDBA on 2000 along with my MCSE and MCSA on 2000 OS. I certainly was experienced with Windows and would not have considered myself a paper MCSE or MCSA, but i was cetainly a paper MCDBA back then. However it was a stepping stone in my career. Basically taking that cert led me to the career path I am on now as a DBA. As far as the tests go, they are getting harder. I have upgraded my MCSE and MCSA on 2000 to 2003 a few years back and the tests have come a long way. Also I upgraded my MCDBA to MCITP:DBA on 2005 and most recently to 2008. The DBA tests are hard and if you are finding many paper DBA's out there then i need to get some of that paper, because its some good paper!
Please realize, when I am talking about a paper MCDBA or MCSE, I'm not talking about someone who, with no experience went and got their dertification alone. I'm talking about someone who because of the certification thinks they are a DBA or SE without the expereince or knowledge.
I have worked with a both. They think they know what they are doing when they don't. They rarely listen to different points of view. And worse, when faced with a problem they rarely ask for help or wait until the problem is more serious or the task is late.
From what you describe of yourself, the term paper MCDBA or MCSE does not fit.
Edit: Fixed the quote.
July 20, 2009 at 7:23 am
From my experience, and observations with others in the IT/IS field over the last 15 years, certifications are neither necessary nor sufficient to indicate that a person is a qualified professional to work with a technology. It's more about being able to memorize various tedious details of the technology than about actual practical capability.
Someone else mentioned that they are used for padding resumes, but another key component of their purpose is creating a 2 way dependency, to encourage vendor lock-in and make a company look good to it's customers. To meet the requirements of being a Microsoft Gold Certified Partner a company has to have so many points worth of certifications. For that investment it took to get that status, a company gets to impress it's customers and clients, and is less likely to switch to a different vendor's technology and have to start at the bottom of the ladder in recognition.
July 20, 2009 at 7:34 am
I am not much for taking test... nor, i admit, am I great at it. I could pass a MCDBA cert if needed however I do not feel the need. I have worked with a good many Certified DBAs and have been able to run circles around them. Now... admittedly i have my own inadiquacies based on my current scope. That is also one issue i have with certs. Especially now with MS release schedule being so quick. I don't think someone can really pass a certification at time of software release unless they are truly a paper only user. (yes there are always exceptions.) Now... someone who has spent 3 years in 2005 should be able to quickly upgrade to 2008 and pass the cert... I think the certs should have a real world component. Get certified, recover from x number to x situations. Support systems of x size\scale. I currently support several hundred db's ranging from 100MB to several in the 2 TB range. What we run into is changing by the day.
July 20, 2009 at 7:55 am
It may have changed as I haven't taken a look at the MS Certs for a while, but When I Was doing my work for my MCDBA/MCSE etc... I was under the impression that the certifications were to test/validate the understanding/competency of someone who had 6 months of experience.
Because of that I agree that these would be worthwhile to use as a hiring manager looking to hire someone for an entry level position. Like others I think it's only a part of the whole, including other education/training and experience. You can't base the your entire decision on the certification, just as you couldn't based solely on a CS degree or the person's phone voice or some other random characteristic. It's all part of the whole.
Add to that I'd rather see students learning this in HS as a Vocational Class (Auto, wood, metal shop etc) in which the training would be spread over a number of years, rather than adults bootcamping for a week and taking the tests. My father taught HS sciences in a Vo-tech school for 35+ years and like all high schools some of the kids worked hard and did well, other well didn't. There were students that were able to bend and shape metal and make masterpieces, and others who could barely make an ashtray...
I view it as the progression of getting more students in front of technology at an earlier age. At one school I'm on the tech curriculum committee for, even the 1st graders who barely have the motor skills to type or work a mouse properly are learning basic PC Skills.
-Luke.
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