March 29, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Why Be an MCP?
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March 29, 2010 at 10:00 pm
I'll keep it simple. Were it not for my SQL 7 cert in 1999, here are a few things would never have happened:
1. I'd've been passed over for my first DBA job in 2000.
2. I'd've not been in a position to be nominated for & earn Microsoft Certified Master:SQL.
3. I'd've not been in a position to have SQL CAT call me & ask me to join them. I on-boarded two weeks ago.
You can learn a little more about my journey here:
So, yes, my choice to get certified way back when was one of my better ones. I invite you to do the same.
Jimmy May, MCM, MCDBA, MCSE, MCITP: DBA + DB Dev
Sr. Program Manager: SQL Server Customer Advisory Team: SQL CAT
Business Platform Division: BPD
March 30, 2010 at 5:59 am
I am tired of this debate and can only address it as I know it...
The best DBAs that I have seen, worked with, or had work for me, DID NOT have certifications. They had what I would call "battlefield experience". If you think answering a bunch of vanilla questions and getting a grade then makes you are true "SQL Soldier" you have bigger problems in your career than just getting sheepskins.
As well, bear one point in mind above all - Certifications are a Revenue Center for Microsoft - They make money on them, big money. If you were THAT talented why would you pay to take a test to show it - it would show on its own in your experience, your references and your attitude. You would not be paying to take a test to get a few letters after your name.
Lastly, I took two certification tests in my career (years ago) and passed them. I was twice certified in Visual FoxPro. Visual FoxPro is now dead. Microsoft killed it off. So I have one question...
Who, and where, at Microsoft, do I write to to get my almost $5,000 dollars back???
March 30, 2010 at 6:54 am
blandry (3/30/2010)
I am tired of this debate and can only address it as I know it...The best DBAs that I have seen, worked with, or had work for me, DID NOT have certifications. They had what I would call "battlefield experience". If you think answering a bunch of vanilla questions and getting a grade then makes you are true "SQL Soldier" you have bigger problems in your career than just getting sheepskins.
As well, bear one point in mind above all - Certifications are a Revenue Center for Microsoft - They make money on them, big money. If you were THAT talented why would you pay to take a test to show it - it would show on its own in your experience, your references and your attitude. You would not be paying to take a test to get a few letters after your name.
Lastly, I took two certification tests in my career (years ago) and passed them. I was twice certified in Visual FoxPro. Visual FoxPro is now dead. Microsoft killed it off. So I have one question...
Who, and where, at Microsoft, do I write to to get my almost $5,000 dollars back???
I'll stongly second that. Heh... especially the parts about the debate and the "battlefield experience".
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2010 at 7:31 am
I'm heard many sides of this debate. I'm sorry to hear that your experiences were not productive. Let me add that I've participated in more than my share of bad training. Yet, I've had some *great* training as well--much of which I've paid for out-of-pocket (à la economist Walter Williams notion of the value of investing in your own intellectual capital). And much of my training has been self-didactic. Thus I've put both my time & my money where my mouth is.
I can guarantee that training is *not* a profit center for Microsoft.
I advocate both battle experience *and* certification. For the record, I was the Sr. DBA for a startup firm since acquired & still in business as well as the Sr. Database Architect for what was at one time the 13th largest OLTP DB in the world (according to Wintergroup, 1995). Implementing the best practices required to nurture a SQL 2000 DB from a few GB to multi-TB high-performance beast did indeed leave scars.
Be clear about this. I wouldn't be where I am today without my experiences in the field *and* in the testing grounds. Best wishes & good luck!
March 30, 2010 at 7:54 am
I've got all but my most recent jobs without holding any certs, and it didn't hold me back -- the experience won the job. On the latest employer however, it became a nice selling point in the interviews (not just keywords on a resume).
This employer is a application hoster, and having certified staff gives the company hard proof to the clients that we're qualified to be the technical experts on their behalf.
I was able to point this out in the interviews, that having the certs doesn't end at "you're hired", it's an ongoing benefit to the company.
March 30, 2010 at 8:24 am
I'd have to say battlefield experience takes a huge it when a person does not have certifications. Whenver I've been interviewed, people were typically excited that I had various certifications on my resume. People who hire want to know that you are certified on the latest versions of MS Products, especially when it comes to hiring a consultant for a job. Even for a non-consultant job, certifications are always a great plus. If you say you can do SQL 2008, but don't have a cert, then another person who does have a cert and say 5 years of real experience, there is trust that they should be able to handle the job. I completely agree that resumes without certifications go into a different pile. With that said, I know a couple great DBAs without certifications. But the trust factor and the belief that someone has at least studied something in order to get a certification goes a long way. Doesn't hurt to have a Masters degree either, which is becoming more common these days.
March 30, 2010 at 1:18 pm
AspiringGeek-40457 (3/30/2010)
I can guarantee that training is *not* a profit center for Microsoft.
Unless you work for Microsoft or have a Microsoft URL stating that, I'm pretty sure you can make no such guarantee. 😉
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Question Guy (3/30/2010)
I'd have to say battlefield experience takes a huge it when a person does not have certifications. Whenver I've been interviewed, people were typically excited that I had various certifications on my resume. People who hire want to know that you are certified on the latest versions of MS Products, especially when it comes to hiring a consultant for a job. Even for a non-consultant job, certifications are always a great plus.
As one who has conducted interviews, I've found the exact opposite to be true in all but one case.
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm
blandry (3/30/2010)
I am tired of this debate and can only address it as I know it...The best DBAs that I have seen, worked with, or had work for me, DID NOT have certifications. They had what I would call "battlefield experience". If you think answering a bunch of vanilla questions and getting a grade then makes you are true "SQL Soldier" you have bigger problems in your career than just getting sheepskins.
As the person who blogs and twitters (tweets?) as SQLSoldier, let me assure you that I am the true SQL Soldier, and I've earned that through my many years of experience and backed it up with the certifications.
I agree that the general certifications are too vanilla and can be easily passed without experience. However, they can be easily passed with just experience as well.
For my SQL 2000 certifications, I studied for the tests pretty heavily out of nervousness. For my SQL 2005 certs, I did the practice tests and decided I didn't need to do any further studying. For my SQL 2008 certs, I just walked into the test center unprepared and aced them.
But now I'm in week 3 of the Master Certification program (MCM), and there is nothing vanilla about this. You can't even get in without having the experience and knowledge to back it up.
March 30, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Unless you work for Microsoft or have a Microsoft URL stating that, I'm pretty sure you can make no such guarantee. 😉
He does .... or have you never heard of the SQLCat team? You should check them out if you haven't.
March 30, 2010 at 1:29 pm
blandry (3/30/2010)
The best DBAs that I have seen, worked with, or had work for me, DID NOT have certifications. They had what I would call "battlefield experience". If you think answering a bunch of vanilla questions and getting a grade then makes you are true "SQL Soldier" you have bigger problems in your career than just getting sheepskins.
Anyone that seriously thinks having a cert makes them a better DBA is deluded, but that isn't an argument against certification - it's an argument against employing the deluded.
blandry (3/30/2010)
As well, bear one point in mind above all - Certifications are a Revenue Center for Microsoft - They make money on them, big money. If you were THAT talented why would you pay to take a test to show it - it would show on its own in your experience, your references and your attitude. You would not be paying to take a test to get a few letters after your name.
I guess you aren't a supporter of further education then, being as most graduates paid to get those letters after their name. I'm fairly sure that the studies all show a very real benefit to having a degree in terms of salary. Maybe you should ask the thoughts of some graduates of the MCM program on whether they see any benefit.
Ultimately the value of a SQL cert is subjective - if a company I want to work at requires it, then it's valuable to me. If my manager requires it before giving me a higher salary, then it's valuable to me. If I want the cert as a physical manifestation of the time and effort I spent in learning the course content (and this was my reason for taking it) then it's valuable to me. You can only rationally state that it has no value to YOU.
March 30, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Very well said, Matt!!
March 30, 2010 at 1:50 pm
matt stockham (3/30/2010)
I guess you aren't a supporter of further education then, being as most graduates paid to get those letters after their name.
I support higher education... so long as something is actually learned. How about the interview I conducted where a PHD in Mathematics couldn't tell me what 1416 converted to Base Ten would be?
Without some indication of what a person has actually learned, practiced, and retained, all those letters after a persons name are just expensive typesetting.
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
matt stockham (3/30/2010)
I guess you aren't a supporter of further education then, being as most graduates paid to get those letters after their name.I support higher education... so long as something is actually learned. How about the interview I conducted where a PHD in Mathematics couldn't tell me what 1416 converted to Base Ten would be?
Without some indication of what a person has actually learned, practiced, and retained, all those letters after a persons name are just expensive typesetting.
Too easy drill sergeant! 2010!
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