February 22, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Hi all ,
Just wanted to know the feedback from others . I have been to an interview with a company recently where the interviewer presented a few tables and asked me to produce the query to satisfy desired results in less than 5 mins . It is not a question of whether the query was complex or not but is it a good approach to gauge the skillset of an interviewee with such test . Any comments welcome . I was just intrigued by the approach since it was the first time for me .
February 23, 2007 at 7:30 am
In the past this was presented to me once in an interview. I chose not to even complete the interview and stated the same to the Support Manager. Based on my situation, resume (15+ years as a DBA at the time), excellent references (internal and external to the firm) and other factors (it was hurriedly scrawled on a partial sheet of paper) I felt that it was totally off the chart so I walked away.
A couple of other times I was asked to take online skills tests (BrainBench is one I remember) which I felt was appropriate. Something 'standard', unbiased and quantifiable may be appropriate based on the circumstances. However standardized testing also has its drawbacks just like certifications. You have good test takers and those who are great at wrote memorization.
Just remember, an interview is just as much you interviewing the prospective employer just as much as they you.
RegardsRudy KomacsarSenior Database Administrator"Ave Caesar! - Morituri te salutamus."
February 23, 2007 at 9:22 am
When I was a manager of our DBA group, I always used a basic SQL test as part of the interview process. Just some simple selects, joins, etc using a northwind schema. They would have the ER diagram in front of them with some simple questions asking how they would go about retrieving information. We would tell them at the exam that we weren’t looking for perfect syntax, just that the basic principals are there. I was amazed at how many candidates claiming to be a senior DBA with many years experience couldn’t tell me the basic parts of a select statement or that the first word in a select statement was SELECT. There were 5 questions increasing in difficulty. It was done in the presents of the interviewer to answer any questions or just skip most of the test if the interviewee offered to just answer the hardest one. My belief is that if you have it on your resume, you better be able to speak to it. We would make it clear that we ask the same questions to all the candidates for fairness. I never had someone turn it down, just gloat at how easily they answered them.
February 23, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Being asked the question wouldn't bother me - but being asked to do it in 5 minutes or less would have me headed to the door. That's like measuring productivity by "lines of code per day". While clearly people have to produce work in a reasonable amount of time, part of being good at this is knowing when the best thing to do is take a walk around the block, or to set something aside for the afternoon.
Before walking, one could try educating. Years ago someone asked me in an interview to write a sort routine in C (in a Unix environment) My answer was "I'd pipe it into the "sort" command after doing a "man sort" to check the right flags to use. When I told this story to the boss I've now worked with for over 20 years, he agreed my answer was the right one: you don't want to hire someone who is going to needlessly write thier own sort command.
We you supposed to answer this orally? Because in writing S.Q.L., I doubt I'm the only one who first generates an empty set or a cross query, and then uses that to realize what I left out.
But the time limit is the killer on that one. If you need your first entry level job, you can suck it up and do your best, but plan to be either running the place or leaving fairly soon.
Roger L Reid
February 23, 2007 at 2:22 pm
No I've never encountered that, but I like the idea of an interviewer asking those types of questions--it seems like a great way to weed out the true morons.
But personally, I would prefer that the test be done at an actual workstation. I'm betting most of us can't remember the syntax (and maybe even the names) of all the functions we use. So, IMHO, a candidate who can use BOL or Google to find out how to solve a problem seems every bit as good as a candidate who knows the answers off hand.
February 23, 2007 at 3:49 pm
I give people a test consisting of 5 questions with 4 SQL problems and one table design problem. I tell candidates that they have an hour to complete the test. I expect that anyone I hire will get the first 4 correct.
The 5th question is meant to be a really hard question to test the ability of advanced candidates, and I have actually never gotten a completely satisfactory answer. I usually go over the answer to that question to explain my objections to their solution to see how they react and if they can improve their answer.
I think the test gives a lot of insight into the ability of the candidates. I started using a test when I realized that some candidates with great credentials didn’t really work out on the job, and I needed a more objective measure of SQL programming ability.
February 23, 2007 at 3:54 pm
What's the 5th question?
February 23, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I am curious as well about the 5th question ...
RegardsRudy KomacsarSenior Database Administrator"Ave Caesar! - Morituri te salutamus."
February 23, 2007 at 5:05 pm
I offered to answer orally but the interviewer insisted on writing it down on paper in front of him . It was relatively an easily question but the the thought in my mind was "what if it was a complex question and i was expected to understand the problem and generate the query < 5mins" and is it really best way to gauge candidate's abilities . I conducted interviews when i was the lead DBA in my previous position and i would try to understand the candidate's skill level by presenting realtime problem scenarios , what if questions , sqlserver internals etc but it never crossed my mind to ask someone to write sql . Problem solving skills are much different from writing sql IMO . U can always refine a query by trying different methods and the server is not going to hurt you if you do that but when the server is hung , unresponsive or the application performance is unacceptable and the users are unhappy it is a totally different ball game .
February 23, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Sorry, but I'm sure you understand I don't want someone walking into the next interview knowing the answer in advance.
I will say it is based on a real question that someone at work asked me, so it is not an unrealistic question. I was able to come up with the answer in a few seconds, so I know it can be done. However, none of the 10 DBAs that reported to me at the time were able to come up with the solution. It is also the kind of question that seems to have a lot of solutions that don't really work. Because of the difficulty and inviting but wrong answers, I started using it in interviews to probe the level of the more advanced candidates.
February 26, 2007 at 1:43 am
Sounds similar to the problem we used to interview programmers - the exam boards required us to generate a unique id number based on certain criteria and with a check character that was created from a given calculation. This requirement appeared just as we were about to interview for a new programmer so we used it as a test, not asking for correct code but enough pseudo code to show working methods and how they'd tackle the problem. It succeeded so we used it for several years to come. The candidates were given pen and paper and a good length of time and advance warning of a task.
February 27, 2007 at 8:08 am
Interesting responses. I interviewed about 5 years ago with someone (I had a decade of SQL Server experience at the time) and they gave me a paper test with 15 or 20 questions. I took it without questioning it, but they left me alone for 20 minutes.
I've also been asked to write queries on a white board in front of people. Never been concerned.
I think testing is a good way for getting a feel for how people think and work, not their knowledge. An interview is pressure, but it's a different kind of pressure than the CEO wanting a report written while he taps his foot in your office.
I like to know how people think and why they make decisions. Or why they choose one method over another. If you can defend your process, you're probably ok. I also think it's important to interact with the interviewers. Ask them questions, better define the problem.
If you're interested in some good questions, can you answer all these? I couldn't.
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February 27, 2007 at 9:56 am
When I was a junior programmer, people would ask me to take some kind of technical tests. It was fine with me because of limited skills and experiences.
With 20 years experiences, if the company asks me to do a technical test, I would do it but never work for the company. First it means they do not trust my resume of which I stated my experiences, and doing a test is degrading at my level at this point. They can ask me general technical question. For God sake, who can rememeber every single SQL command in Bookonline ? As long as I know how to do it and where to find the answer, that would be enough. Also I am still learning after all these years, there are so many ways to write a query, who can judge which way is good.
I interviewed people and asked them a few general SQL questions, mostly I want to know if that person fit into the group and if that person has motivation to learn and has good interpersonal skills. One time my old company hired a contractor, his skills was excellent, but he was arrogant and no one wanted to work with me and we had to let him go.
It is very difficult to interview people. I rather have people interview me than I interview people.
February 27, 2007 at 10:07 am
BTW, there was a question asked by Bill Gates (10 years ago), it was not a technical question but kind of a IQ question. But he said if anyone could answer that question in five minute, that person could work for him.
It seemed to me he was looking for a person who loved challenge and had intellectual curiosity instead of technical skills. You could always learn technical skills, but not everyone was born to be a thinker and a motivator.
Actually I got that question from my son's teacher when he was seven years old studying third grade. I asked many programmers that questions, only one could answer me in 5 minutes, the other did not answer me or not even want to try.
February 27, 2007 at 10:38 am
Loner, what was the question ?
RegardsRudy KomacsarSenior Database Administrator"Ave Caesar! - Morituri te salutamus."
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